the president's testimony is important to the on going grand jury investigation and must demonstrate why this evidence is not available from another source. that doesn't seem like a very high bar. they're arguing the special counsel hasn't met it. >> it's not a high bar. it exists all over the country. that's why you don't see %-p investigations. you have to show, we've interviewed the lower level people, and he's got critical information they don't have. obviously in this case the president has an abundance of critical information. he was meeting with people in trump tower by himself or with imt limited numbers of people in the room many times during the campaign. he has information about and relevant to the investigation. so i think he meets the espy test even if you apply it -- >> you're saying it's a flawed legal argument, not going to hold any water? >> i think it's a completely flawed legal argument. on the other hand, i think the president can refuse to testify.