you have to sort of squint just the right way to believe it's possible, but if all the information flowed from michael cohen to these companies, it wouldn't necessarily be illegal. >> right, there are questions, and we don't have the answers yet, but was he actually lobbying? he was setting up meetings with members of the administration? he was representing a foreign government to lobby or get meetings? we know novartis, the ceo, did have this dinner with president trump. we don't know, was that already planned before they hired michael cohen? >> and columbus nova in this case, the company with linksoli different legal matter than novartis and at&t? >> so, we don't know. because we really don't understand why columbus nova is paying money to michael cohen. with novartis and at&t, they both said they paid him for access. and i agree with the ambassador, this is -- this is a terrible thick that thing that's been going on in administrations for years, but people are paying to get proximity to the president. so, we know what they were doing. they were very forthright about