when credibility comes to the fore here as it is now, who has more credibility in this, michael cohen or donald trump? >> well, to me that reminds me of those sort of logic problems about two people, one of whom always lies, the other one always tells the truth, but in this case you're not dealing with either of them being a person who really tells the truth, right? so this is a situation where i think it's unbelievably difficult to parse out whose account to take seriously. one does hope that we get to see a more in-depth, intensive analysis of what was actually said on that audiotape. i do want to piggyback on something chris said and maybe go further. the underlying story here is not just about michael cohen turning on donald trump in a moment of legal duress. he made this tape when he was ostensibly a guy who would take a bullet for donald trump. >> that's a great point. >> and it tells us the culture of this organization and the