two people who have zero credibility. at the very least, i think michael cohen is going to have to surface somebody else or some sort of document or tape that backs him up on this before he really backs the president against a wall. >> another example of this dramatic moment in the sense that michael cohen for years did all the president's work. some would call it dirty work, taking care of things, fixing things. when they thought michael cohen was going to be loyal when he came under investigation, the white house had no worries. now listen to rudy giuliani's then and now. >> the man is an honest, honorable lawyer. i don't see how he has any credibility. there's nobody that i know that knows him that hasn't warned me that if his back is up against a wall, he'll lie like crazy because he's lied all his life. >> he's lied all his life, but just a month before that, he was an honest lawyer. >> a few weeks ago. pretty remarkable. one of the ways we can test who's telling the truth is who's willing to say that under oath. if cohen does go forward and say this under oath, will the