significant part of their case and also walking through how they were paid. right? because that's really the essential fact of the charges he's facing is that the money significant amount of money, millions of dollars he was paid for the work was routed illegally seemingly to avoid u.s. taxes. so my understanding of his testimony was to show the ties, show russia's tie to that and exactly how this work was done to avoid u.s. taxes and, therefore, break the law. >> rick, more specifically, ted devine described rick gates as doing things like arranging travel and saying manafort led the campaign strategy in ukraine. that doesn't sound like manafort was duped in any way. >> no. look, paul manafort is a slippery operator. he's been in the suers of d.c. for a long time. he's served the most egregious sort of dictator figuring around the world. trying to throw his minion under the bus isn't going to work here, and paul manafort is the guy in the room with people. he is the guy in the room with the people closing these deals. it's not rick gates, his guy. it's paul manafort getting the briefcase full of cash. it's not rick gates. paul manafort seems to have kept rick gates on a short leash in terms of control. and sent him to do administration and not master >> -- minding. >> april?