that sometimes works and it sometimes doesn't. >> right. isn't the counter argument, if you're willing to lie in front of congress about things that aren't important and asking for a pardon or whether or not you wanted a job in the white house then what does that mean about, you know, the things that are really important? >> look, at the end of a trial, a judge says to the jury, something like you are allowed to consider the overall credibility of the witness based on particular untruths they may have told but you're also allowed to consider whether or not the person was truthful about a number of things and maybe fudged or had problematic testimony on others and that's the job of the persuader whether it's a prosecutor or member of congress and an impeachment type proceeding to make the argument. overall, the people who are watching and paying attention have to be persuaded on the points that are important, the truth was told. >> we still don't have a report from robert mueller but regardless of what he finds, the reality is the president is