into apple, for example? >> it can be anything. secrets to how the iphone is made. it can be communications. it can be anything. that's the scary thing. >> denial of service. >> simply to disrupt it. >> exactly. or to interfere with the communication with consumers. >> i think you have to separate some of the hacking like "the new york times," which is the chip knees would say, in effect, was their national security, trying to find out what these "times" reporters were trying to find out. hacking apple which to me makes absolutely no sense for the chinese. maybe they're going to steal a trade secret or two. but they don't want to lose these companies as business partners. >> it's the worst time for this to be happening. >> that's the structural difference versus the cold war. the difference was american companies weren't trying to access, by and large, soviet markets at the time. so we knew we had an adversary. we were each trying to do things to one another. this situation's unique because we have this adversarial relationship on the one hand.