and and having already won into self exile in order to do that. and walking into his consulate where he was seeking marriage papers. to marry the woman that he loved. as i read this story and got deeper into. the undercurrents of it and learned more about who jamal was i became in passion to want to shed light on to this story cinematically to tell the story that was not in the news to tell the un's told story about jamal khashoggi and who this man was and the impact left in the wake of his murder i mean interests you expose the lies and machinations of russian doping. with this film we you know that. you had no fear from saudi authorities that the public relations networks against making a film that puts the saudi government firmly in the spotlight for this. and here we are speaking to r t you know and you know for civil i'm always asked this question of you know where are you in fear and. fear of russia are you sure the saudis and my responses you know no. because i view myself as a journalist. i view myself as someone that seeks to tell truth. and and i also believe that being an american hopefully we still have a semblance of democracy and free speech. allows for storytelling. and a system of checks and balances that brings troops into the world but i think the bigger thing for me is they go ok there are tens of thousands of people that are suffering in saudi arabia under human rights abuses and what happened to john malkovich show you what happened on my abdel-aziz is painted in the film and it's just one. horrific example of this and if i can possibly devote my time and work to helping other people. i view whatever risk that may be as worthwhile and so i never really think about. these kind of whatever you would think somebody over your shoulder when you're making the work instead i look ahead and i go i'm really proud that i've helped omar or that i've helped to t.j. as journalist fiance. mourning his loss or have helped the world have a better understanding of a country that is abusing human rights. well obviously the saudi government denies the abuse of human rights but it is such a running film i saw it myself and we like to be fearless journalists here i'm going on the ground by the i became fearful when you started to talk about how pieces of software i can we put in our phones we know edward snowden has taken asylum in moscow is massive valence revelations just over you know give it all away it's all in the film this israeli piece of software that the saudis. allegedly used they can just send us a link right now both of us on the phone and and you say that it was sent to jeff bezos the richest man in the world the reason why we included that in the film. is i think we see more and more the use of cyber hacking tools cyber some surveillance tools you know edward snowden made us all aware of this in the united states with what our government was doing in regards to the n.s.a. . and here we are you know years later and understanding that there is software being developed by private companies like like ana so out of israel that will sell these hacking tools to governments regardless of what their intents and purposes are and that these tools are even far more dangerous than what snowden unveiled under an a so because this is a direct targeted tool that can take control of your device and as we see in the dissident saudi arabia used this technology to hack the phone of omar abdel aziz the saudi dissident living in montreal and jamal khashoggi and arguably this hack was one of the reasons once they had access to their their devices that they decided to murder to. mol and the hacker jeff bezos phone was pure you know retribution or revenge for the fact that he owns the washington post which is a newspaper operating you know in under the conscripts of freedom of press jeff bezos doesn't control the editorial content of the washington post but in mohamed bin solomons saudi arabia if you own a newspaper then that means you actually control what the newspaper writes about and in this case mom had been solomon was upset that the washington post was covering the murder of jamal khashoggi so he hacked basis his phone to teach him a lesson and expose his affair you really don't see many empty amazones articles in the washington post but but there has to be said that film and some of the best films are about about the vulnerable being attacked by the powerful so in this film you can be the richest person in the world but you can still be targeted i mean it's an ironic victim here i mean if we put that obviously the tragic in the tragedy and brutality of the show jesus case you can be jeff bezos and you can be the victim i think that money. and power certainly doesn't stop someone from being you know a victim. you know the victims take all all shapes forms sizes certainly i think it's probably harder to feel sympathetic for the richest man in the world being hacked and having you know an affair exposed. but i think the takeaway from that. isn't isn't you know that it's the take away of the power that a state agent can have in gaining access into our lives you know what the dissidents also goes deep into showing is saudi arabia is control over social media and the extent to which they will go to try to control the public narrative and control the public thought and opinion and shines light on to the extent to which an authoritarian regime will go to not only suppress truth but try to create their own version of the truth to subvert reality i don't want people to think that there's no catharsis in your new film and there's no hope just tell me about the the bees and the flies. well the bees and the flies are basically you know synonyms for. the flies mohamed bin solomon and saudi arabia over the last several years understood that they could essentially control the public sphere they control social media. 80 percent of saudi arabians are on twitter because it's the only platform where they can go to actually have some some lines of freedom of speech and so it's where saudi arabia goes to share information so n.b.s. and his you know flies essentially they have hired thousands and thousands of saudis to create fake twitter accounts for the government and basically to push forward and vss narrative on to twitter to make it look like this was what all of saudi arabia wanted and anybody who posted a cause a comment that was not supportive of and b.s. their comments were were basically flooded by the flies to make it look like you know that this person didn't have an authentic opinion all wall saudi arabia is basically using social media to hack it to create their hashtags to trend so the bees is what omar abdel aziz and jamal khashoggi called their counter army have you sent the film to joe biden because he seems to change his mind in the primaries he said that m.p.'s at the pay for what happened and now he doesn't have to pay for what. you know. there is a period of time there where. you know i was so excited that the film was being released essentially now with the idea that there was a new american administration that. biden had come forward publicly saying you know i intend to hold saudi arabia accountable i'm going to change the narrative and in his 1st days of office that look to be the case he blocked a 500000000 dollar weapon sells to saudi and and the m.r. audi's condemned the war in yemen there was a peace flag kind of offered in the release allusion all hot tool saudi woman shimon rights activists. and then of course the release is the cia intelligence report on the show you murder but this report shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that i mean we already knew this but now just confirms that the bahamas been solomon ordered the murder of jamal khashoggi and then he has declined to impose any sanctions or any meaningful punishment. on the kingdom and so you know what this does is send the message not just to have been silent but authoritarians all over the world that murder will be tolerated but i think biden says that's not the message but hey i've said this film to him. we have people on the team that have been working to get them to see i don't know if you seen it you know i know hillary clinton is seeing it because she was our screening last year i know various members of congress have seen the film i mean it's my hope that you know leaders around the world not just buy it and see the film because i think the were in a day and age where yes the united states you know. we still has that kind of authority and setting a precedent but i also think that that you know that we should be falling on the u.k. too and on france and on germany and you know if in the chronon angela merkel and boris johnson and justin trudeau and other you know leaders of other countries come forward and say hey we're going to do something about this we're going to end iraq sanctions. johnson says we have a very robust selling. contract and vironment as britain continues to sell weapons to to saudi for for yemen ryan fogle stumpy that more from the oscar winning director after this short break. the world is driven by drama. thinks. we. welcome back i'm still with oscar winning director bryan fogle who directed the bafta nominated film the dissident you can understand it seems a bit difficult when gina asked bill appears in the film. as a kind of hero who is part of this you know experts say sad would be malpractise i mean she according to the senate foreign relations committee was presiding over u.s. torture in southeast asia the idea that we should take the cia's would that showed she was killing was masterminded by a b.s. when the cia has a reputation for a fascination attempts against castro and and successful ones arguably against jacob araa. you know i think it just shows i mean just just how complicated. it is you know. for example you know hillary clinton sent out a tweet supporting the dissidents and her twitter feed was immediately filled with you know and what have you done here and what have you done in benghazi and what have you done right and what we understand is that in global politics there are so many shades of grey and and so i don't think the the argument of you know well. you know the cia has carried out these. plots of murders negates the fact that jamal to show you walked into his country's consulate where he was horrifically murdered strangled drugged and cut to pieces in a bone saw and his body then burned in a tent dorie up and you can see that through the film because obviously the turkish intelligence service is of cooperated with you on the film and they were violating international protocols for bugging the embassy but i have to take issue maybe with one element where you say at least the devil is in the desert initiative of mom had been sounding with big business was supposed to celebrate the future of saudi arabia was affected by this mother i mean it was only a year later the george bush who was the black rocks boss larry fink credit suisse goldman sachs they just b.c. i mean they were all there in 2019 and then a successful virtual conference this year if if tens of millions of people are under threat of death according to the u.n. human rights council can't can your film. be that extra. thing on the pivot to make change here you know this is this is work it's so complicated. where what what we see and what you just alluded in davos in the desert you know m b s's investment conference and in the 2 years following to show you murdered that here all these investment banks big goldman sachs a credit suisse or k p m g you know or the cushion or 0 heads of government or you know even as we saw you know recently you know with with former prime attire and prime minister mattel renzi you know coming to saudi arabia and you know calling this the new renaissance right that that that we see that the money the true just money and investment. is going to and continues to take place over human rights and and the same can be said in regards to china you know the same can be said in in regards to you know so many countries in the world where the money is too big to pass up and you know and abuses like this are murders like this. you know these companies or governments in the case of selling weapons or trade deals with ever are willing to look the other way because of the financial interests and so it's a it's a very perilous road that i don't see an easy solution for and even then in the murder of jamal khashoggi here as you see in the film the u.n. special repertoire agnes calmar who's now the head of amnesty international and her investigation presents to the u.n. you know an open and closed case and the united nations refuses to do anything they did they don't bring it to the security council they don't bring it to the general assembly they don't you know. they just go ok the member states of the u.n. are basically letting us know that. wall appalled by this they're not going to do anything because there's billions are arguably trillions of dollars on the line between investment in oil and all these complicated interests and. you know this is the reality of the world that we're going to run fogle thank you thanks for having me now to hear the other side let's go straight to the saudi arabian capital riyadh to speak to the founder and president of the saudi american public relations affairs committee salman and sorry some of thanks so much for coming on so who should we believe brian fogle louie just spoke there he's a he won an oscar nobel peace laureate topical common it was on this show the cia aura or n.b.s. about whether n.b.s. was responsible for this brutal killing of the washington post and the jamal khashoggi yeah i think it's so much for having me i think the case of mr hushabye he has been politicized to an unprecedented level that we haven't seen for the last decades i claim though even though the cia report itself did not provide any evidence of the comprehensive involvement in this killing order and even though the saudi justice system served justice against those who committed this crime against a hijab and even though i should use family declared their support to the court's ruling but we are still seeing this media campaign against the kingdom and its leadership this is actually to me it shows when thing which is the fact that they are not interested in serving justice but rather damaging the kingdom's reputation by any means. oh is it just the media i mean in this film the visitor and gina hospital famous for being used of torture it should be said as a former head of the cia she is very concerned american society but he has to believe the cia definitely says mom had been solomon is the person on the other hand you i noticed tweeted that something from john bolton claiming that the turkish intelligence tape didn't implicate moments all meant. look like the u.s. and its affiliates media and so-called human rights organizations should put some efforts in my opinion to correct the internal us human rights issues domestically i claim if they spent 20 percent of the efforts they put internationally in their domestic affairs the us will be able to be the beacon of hope when it comes to human rights let's not forget the fact that the u.s. has killed more than 800000 citizens in iraq and afghanistan and let's not forget that they have tortured prisoners in iraq and they continue to do so in guantanamo but in state they want to run away from from the from the front from these problems from their problems by blaming and lecturing others we want the united states to be pragmatic to be russia not to be calling things by their names not to be in a position where they put the size human rise to this very sad extent riyadh became the main capital of combating terrorism ideologically electronically etc to a point through which you don't hear anymore of any one alleging the kingdom of aiding terrorism and the kingdom actually went the extra mile stone by encouraging its western allies to take a firmer stance against hate and radical groups such as the muslim brotherhood which operate freely in all western nations such as europe and the us i remember a far left media opposite that labeled saudi arabia as an islam before it's like alleging the vatican's of being anti catholics as some have done over history but hang on what about when who funded the ice is there in syria then was it not sauce they gly through saudi arabian money no not a penny not a not a real this is actually a very interesting question because saudi arabia which has been accused by whom by iran. to be supporting isis because that's the only country that accuses saudi of supporting isis and that attack iran maybe that's one incident that happened which maybe has been fabricated by the iranian regime itself because let's not forget the fact that the leaders of operations of that are residing in teheran are in iran safer now than others so so that idea. as you know the iranian government deny that they can deny this i think it's a very proven by different parties and specifically the united states treasury department has mentioned this clearly in multiple reports since 2013 so the idea of having saudi arabia to be in any way linked to al-qaeda or isis is just ironic and nobody would buy this unless if if you can actually believe they raid and reaching . you see some might say that saudi arabia is falling into the trap of powers that it has sort of lance's with in a kind of imperial stranglehold i mean this this film the dissident talks about how the fact that saudi arabia things have journalists the way that old kings in the desert thought of people who told them things in that they wanted to hear you must be very aware of orientalism and racism why decide the arabia not realize that it should have a report with iran and that a united muslim world would be much stronger than than the world where saudi arabia is now just accused of being an assassination state trust me said arabia has always has been always extending its arms to the iranians and iran as a neighbor nobody can deny that iran has a beautiful history it has contributed to humanity but the iranian regime itself unfortunately has said with cash. nation we are speaking of tens of other militias in syria we are speaking of hezbollah the biggest terrorists or the biggest terrorist group in the wall is when there is a political party in lebanon iraq and syria have invited those are a 1000000 units i mean is it difficult lobbying for saudi arabia right now i mean where is princella lead i mean he owns everything from warner brothers is the only thing citi group to for we're izzie this moment been salmond what was he done with all these people of the americans america's favorite saudi is he was cool moment been one of them is it true 11000000000 dollar ransoms what is going on there. ok limited something and i'll be very frank with you as a saudi citizen i confess that the king of saudi arabia has not been doing enough on telling a story to anybody we have a terrible marketing plan when it comes to telling our story to the world we should not for forget the fact that there is a big responsibility on the us part because the us opened the doors of help in the middle east after invading iraq and handing it to the iranian regime in a sober platter unfortunately we are seeing right now from the current administration some kind of way is to do the same thing which is appeasement policy this appeal with policy with iran would result in more instability in the region and the wall this definitely must change obviously the u.s. and iran deny supporting terrorism they say they're against it just very quickly and surely you can forgive some of the p.r. firms here in london got the big saudi contract how do you sell the war in yemen to the international community. ok here's the thing that worried me i me