human cost of these laws. he's also very articulate. and he's also someone that conveys a certain earnest quality. he's not here to showboat. he's deeply moved by being a part of this. so it's a perfect person to put forward, not that the other once are not equally compelling. but as lead counsel, you often do look at who can stand in front of the light and best represent the issues in your case. and he's ideal in my view. >> because you're not only trying to win over a swing justice like anthony kennedy, neil, but you're also trying to win over the public who might find somebody from ohio who is well spoken and refers to himself as a taxpayer more identifiable, more relatable, more compelling than somebody who might be less so. >> yes, and as a litigator, that's exactly what you're trying to do, find the most sympathetic plaintiff. in this case, this is like a family law case. this is the thing that this court as opposed to local courts