>> this is on the road to serfdom. >> but the reason one part of america has gotten off the road to serfdom. not that everyone was happy about that but the governor of puerto rico might say how we can get off the road to serfdom. >> there is hope. we might not be dragged down by the chains if we make a moral case for capitalism and limited government. that is our show tonight. >> john: the burden of government constantly grow. politicians spend more and regulate more. this is the road to ser 2/3 dom. that is what prize winning economist called it, hence my chain. government expansion is done to protect us, ensuring fairness and people like that. president obama used the word fair nine times in lasts state of the union address. >> our fair share of taxes. >> my fair taxes. fair shea, it's not fair, unfair trading practices. >> john: look, i'm for fairness but the author of the "road to freedom," says he is wrong. he is arthur brooks, a columnist agrees with him. your point first, people that defend free markets argue that it gives us the power to prosper we're saying it the wrong way. >> we've heard since we've been studying, cat lism gives us the greatest prosperity, that is true but that is not the reason we should care about those things. but why we feed freedom and why we want freedom and we can't concede this point about fairness. the president is making a moral claim that state is fair enterprise and that is factually inaccurate. we define fairness as creating an opportunity society and rewarding merlt and only free enterprise. >> you used the word statism. he would say redistribution helping the poor? >> statism means the en tral institution which our economy is based on is the state. they are the ones that know the best. if you look at the data, i know you have a million times. you have shown it on the show. the size of government is growing and growing and fair price system even as we knew it 05 years ago doesn't exist. >> john: you go further than that. you say we're on the road to hell. [ laughter ] >> i think that is about right. you look at the last quarter, first quarter of 2023 we produced more debt in society wean did g.d.p. we're borrowing more money than we are producing. we that can't go on for very long. the government is more intrusive and more authoritarian. >> john: it's about fairness and helping the poor. >> i find it interesting when i talk to my friends on the left. i said what is that number? the top 1% of income tax filers earn 17% and pay 37% of income tax. if that number is fair, what if, it's more and more and more. >> john: it's hard to make a moral case for equality. in free society some will do better than others. >> that is great thing. we have to worry about mobility. if you are worried about inequality you will bring the top down. if you are worried about mobility you can earn your success. >> john: we can no longer earn success. >> we need to root out the way that is rigged. corporate cronyism is a part of the growing state. the reason we have it is because the government has earned. if we focus on that we could get back on the right path. >> and corporate cronyism or crony capitalism and how does that people -- because the politically connected you are get deals. >> you have friends in the washington and you have the best lawyers and accountants. that shuts out everybody that is trying to start a business. most of the jobs are creating by businesses five years or older. these are not people who are not well connected. basically if a public sector unions and large corporations that are too big to fail and other people get all the deems where does it leave the rest of america? >> john: mobility. the data i've seen is conflicted. a pew study of all people found that lots of people who were in the bottom quarter ended up in the top and people on the top end up on the bottom. >> sure, bits 44% on the people get out of that within the next ten years and top fall. that is lower than it was and that is what we should worry about. >> one of the things we a need make, less focus on the income gap. let's say you have two job offers, $50,000 and $55,000 and job "b" you make $50,000500,000 and your boss is making a million dollars. i think the focus is really on the wrong thing. >> john: have you ever anyone say i would rather make the $50,000. >> some people focus on the envy aspect. let's focus the gap, that is almost an icon for them. >> envy is a big deal. people that do feel envious, the key thing about them, they feel they don't have mobility. they can't get ahead. people who think they can get ahead want even if there is a lot of ineastbound adequate they want a society that has mobility. so protect the opportunity society and say inequality is perfectly okay. >> john: one person that changed the terms of the debate in the way you describe is charles murray when you wrote losing ground. welfare was something that was going there and anybody that fought it was cruel. >> basically said that the problem with the welfare system is not a waste of money which it was. it was hurting the people that was supposed to help. as soon as the moral claim was laid out the fuse was lit. all major policy reforms take ten years, it took 12 years before he wrote that in 1984 and bill clinton signed the welfare reform legislation into law in 1996. >> john: it's exciting maybe in ten years we can turn this around. first time last few years i've heard politicians talking about the exploding government and it being a problem. we have a graph that shows the federal spending. tornado line is really ugly and unsustainable, ten years? we can turn this around? >> there are a lot of people persuaded in this country? fairness, we need to have to have the buffett rule. >> it appeals to people. >> we have to say okay, if you a want to talk fairness, it's not feeling for our kids and grandkids. not giving bailouts to auto corporations. >> john: go to the politicians with the signs and saying they can't. >> on the book tour people say to me, you libertarians you don't care about the poor. it's interesting that even before the depression before any of these social programs existed nobody in america was starving on the streets. charities existed to help people and mutual aid societies. there was 10,000 of them, they were racist, blacks helping blacks and swede helping swedes. now, we're so much richer, charities like that would step in and really help poor people. >> they could. there are two classes of people in america, people that should have their own money away and people that believe we should give your money away. >> if we got rid of all the social programs, people wouldn't starve on the street. >> people wouldn't starve on the street but i don't belief we should get rid of all associating programs either. we focus on hiyek. >> but the safety net is not about middle-class welfare or taking the risk out of life and not trying to lure inequality. that is what paul ryan called a hammock. >> and rather than having a program on poor people that really need help we give things to everybody, prescription drug plan and president bush, let's do something for poor people that are 80 years old can't take care of themselves, as soon as you turn 65, everybody gets drug benefits. >> john: so you get free stuff. you talk about the moral case for capitalism. why not say it didn't go far enough. why have any government safety net. charity will do it all better. >> there is evidence that certain things that charity won't address adequately according to our values, according to moral wishes. the mentally ill, hospitals for the mentally ill. what we found there is not evidence they would be adequately cover and that is what i want my taxes to go through. to me, having the mentally ill in the streets, it's not to make more people economically equal or bail people out that is able-bodied. that is nuts. that is what is leading us down the road in the first place. >> john: thank you. coming up, they tell a town sure you can repair the water supply, you can't use modern tools to do it, you have to use horses and hand tools like they want us to be serfs back in the middle ages. most life insurance companies look at you and just see a policy. at aviva, we do things differently. we're bringing humanity back to life insurance. that's why only aviva rewards you with savings for getting a check-up. it's our wellness for life program, with online access to mayo clinic. see the difference at avivausa.com. droid does. and does it launch apps by voice while learning your voice ? launch cab4me. droid does. keep left at the fork. does it do turn-by-turn navigation ? droid does. with verizon, america's largest 4glte network and motorola, whatever you want to do... droidoes. of how a shipping giant can befriend a forest may seem like the stuff of fairy tales. but if you take away the faces on the trees... take away the pixie dust. take away the singing animals, and the storybook narrator... [ man ] you're left with more electric trucks. more recycled shipping materials... and a growing number of lower emissions planes... which still makes for a pretty enchanted tale. ♪ la la la [ man ] whoops, forgot one... [ male announcer ] sustainable solutions. fedex. solutions that matter. when i'm on overtime. when i'm in over my head. when i have to be sharp... no matter how many time zones i've crossed. when i'm on my feet for hours. when it's game time. when the day's only half over but my energy is all gone. when i need the energy to start exercising. every day. every day. every day is a 5-hour energy day. 5-hour energy. every day. >>. >> john: tombstone, arizona, one of more famous towns in america, a the movie explains. >> tombstone as a legend the story of wyatt earp 3. >> they are less like arely to have gun fights these days but it allows the story to do whatever they want to to you. i don't think he would think kindly of what the u.s. agriculture department did to tombstone. rain washed out the pipes that delivered spring water to the city. >> if a huge sbourld down every which way and you have the force of that was tremendous. >> john: these city workers showed us what the storm did to the papers to. >> it got twisted up and wrapped around trees. >> john: so the city started to repair the pipe because what is more important than water in a desert? but the federal government came in and said, no, your repairs might hurt wildlife. i can only rebuild if you use horses and hand tools. that sounded wrong to the goldwater institute. their president is darcy olson. >> we thought it was a physical problem. we didn't realize it was a forest service saying, sure, you can go access your water as long as do you it with horses and hand tools. >> they explained the feds wanted to protect these animals. don't people matter? >> no, of course not. we don't matter. >> john: darcy olson joins us now. people don't matter. come on. people matter? >> this is declared state of emergency in arizona. >> john: they declared it a water emergency? >> right, there is not enough water. there is a two day supply and all the water is gone. they are not asking for resources or money, all they are asking is that their water that they own on park lands. >> john: they had 25 springs that sent them water and the storm destroyed all but one and riarnd two and they were stopped? >> right. basically they went in and doing some work and the forest service folks came out, they had a wheelbarrow, that is too much mechanicization for this area, a wheelbarrow. it could destroy the wildlife. >> john: and these bureaucracy, they are environment zell lots and they choose to go to work for these people? >> one of the things that was absurd to us, when it happened and all the springs were ruined, there were e-mails going out by ecological extremists, ins wonderful the pipe springs have been liberated as if having water in pipes is too anti-nature for them. they had a picture of a spot owl on top of a broken water pipe. >> john: that is the animal they are trying to save, spotted owl and mexican spotted owl. a leopard frog and a giant skipper butterfly? >> they are throwing all kinds of excuses why they are not allowing people access to their water. the fire that burned, destroyed that habitat. there is no spotted owls. when you walk through the woods there is not a sound in the forest at all. there is nothing left there. that has been been destroyed. nevertheless, all those animals did cohabit with the pipe springs. >> john: you run the libertarian think tank and you shall suing? >> we are. we are not going into the weeds but the tenth amendment explicitly provides that the federal government cannot get in wait of the states or municipalities protecting the life and safety of their residents. in this case you've got a town at risk not only not having water but fire and people need access to their water. >> john: the local bureaucracy live there, too, don't they want water? >> they do but they are working for the forest service and trying to do their jobs. they are not making those decisions. those decisions are made in washington. >> john: god bless washington which puts us on that road to serfdom. thank you darcy olson of goldwater institute. coming up, will obamacare bring us on the road to serfdom? a doctor says, you bet. then government takes your money and spends it on empty buildings? >> it's just empty. what is in it for them? >> it's bureaucracy. they can't make a decision. ok! who gets occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas or bloating? get ahead of it! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defend against digestive issues with three strains of good bacteria. hit me! [ female announcer ] live the regular life. phillips'. ♪ i can do anything ♪ i can do anything today ♪ i cano anywhere ♪ i can go anywhere today ♪ la la lla la la la [ male announcer ] dow solutions help millions of people by helping to make gluten free bread that doesn't taste gluten free. together, the elements of science and the human element can solve anything solutionism. the new optimis born to leap, born to stalk, and born to pounce. to understand why, we journeyed to africa, where their wild ancestor was born. there we discovered that cats, no matter where they are... are born toe cats. and shouldn't your cat be who he was born to be? discover your cat's true nature. purina one. >>. >> john: want a new way to punish kid. if they misbehave they will have to read this, this is obamacare, this is patient protection affordable care act. we're told this will make healthcare cheaper and giving more coverage to more people. how could it do both? it can't but some people have so much faith in government control. i just wrote this book to refute of the better life through more government, but central planning appeals to people. we believe that our wise leaders can make things better. however, the doctors at the association of american physicians and surgeons are skeptical about that. former president is orthopedic surgeon lee he b. you know what the road to serfdom means. how did that happen? >> i like that read ideas and i like free markets. >> john: they do seem to work better but this appealed to lots of people. the idea that we have to worry about paying for healthcare and other countries take care of you. why isn't this better? >> well, other countries purport to take care of you. we have a lot of history in the 20th century, for instance soviet union he had flee health care but boris yeltsin went to america for his health care and soviet union was good enough for great masses but not good enough for boris yeltsin. >> they are asking to be exempted because they realize they can't afford it. as much as obamacare is a problem, everybody is concerned about 2700 pages in the bill, if it goes away tomorrow the problem doesn't go away tomorrow. the problem started in 1965 when the advent of medicare and medicaid that have grown into monstrous vampire programs that suck the life blood out of american people. >> john: people like health care. >> until it collapses but seniors are find out it's harder and to find a physician that takes medicare. ultimately government medicine fails and when it fails it fails spectacularly. i talked to people around the world and i look at the data. there is a difference between feel good medicine and good medicine. i believe medicine is between a doctor and a patient not between a government and a bureaucrat and a patient. if you look at, for example, almost any marker you want. survival cancer rates, they are significantly better in the united states. they may feel good in finland but they have universal health care. the five year survival right raitd for men for cancer in europe is 47%. in united states it's 66%. that is not chump change. so sultan needed care he came to ph.d. anderson. >> and. >> despite those examples they say you want to dump healthcare. if you are poor you die? >> well, i am old enough to remember when health care was not run by the government. my father practiced medicine in a small town in iowa. people weren't dying on the streets then. the answer to medical care is what we did back then and it worked. it's the 3 c's of health care, cash for out patient care. when you have cash the price of things go down. competition makes everything better. we have no competition in government monopoly medicare. >> john: cash, catastrophic insurance but first right now you expect the insurance company to pay. a few people have health saving accounts and they will say to the doctor, does it need to cost that. nobody has asked the question before. the doctor says, oh, you are paying cash. now, i guess it will cost less than if you pay me now. they don't know where to put the cash. is that what you mean? >> absolutely. an example of that is lasic. it used to cost $5,000. because no insurance and medicare doesn't cover it, it's cash. now, we have the same competent surgeons. lasik the cost has gone from $5,000, i see it advertised for $500. that is what cash does. >> john: the quality has gone up? >> exactly. if people paid cash for out patient items and use catastrophic insurance means that it's only for big ticket items, you break your femur, long term hospitalization but we use our health insurance for every proverbial oil change. we go in with a runny nose, we wanted it taken care of. i had seven employees. i was in a big orthopedic practice. i had seven employees and five of them dealt with the paperwork with billing third party payers. now with government involved they won't let you charge below a certain rate even if you come in and you are uninsured, i want to give you a charitable deal, i can't go blow medicare rates. >> john: do you think charity will take care of the poor? >> we used to run charities very well, the local communities took care of each other but that goes away because we have a government welfare idea. it's not charity when you reach into your neighbor's pocket and force him to pay for somebody else's broken hip. we get the cost down through cash and catastrophic insurance you can afford to be charitable. >> john: i believe that the free market will do everything better but people will say to me, it works for consumer goods but for complicated things like healthcare the government has to take control because it's too complex? >> i reject that. the individual can do this. i talk to business groups all around the country, my first question, when is government ever gone into your business and made it more cost-effective. it doesn't work for your business, it doesn't work for mine either. they apply it applies to medical care do. we produce goods and services just like other businesses. they may think it's more complicated because of the 150,000 regulations. >> john: so next time they foist this on it. we should say no way? >> n