job to hold trump accountable. that's what prosecutors and courts are for. >> president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office. didn't get away with anything, yet. we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation. and former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one. >> lisa rubin is a former litigator, known msnbc legal analyst. charles colbert prosecuted civil cases on behalf of -- the government. he's now a civil rights defense attorney. they both join me now, free to have you here. first, give me your first read on the central idea of this argument. you have to impeach and convict first argument as it appeared today, which i was not anticipating to be as central as it was. >> it's not the first line argument. the argument that they are making on presidential immunity starts with the overarching he's immune from everything because of the structure of the constitution and separation of powers principles. this was their second line. the impeachment judgment clause