doug ledder, the lead signatory, ran the civil appeals program at the justice department for many years before he became the top lawyer for the house. so this is well thought out. it's well researched. it's well evidenced. and when this referral makes its way over to the justice department, it won't be something ephemeral or sketchy. it will be an allegation of two specific crimes, at least two that were committed, and a lot of evidence to back that up. the issue here has always been trump's state of mind. for one of the stamp utilities here he has to have acted willfully and that means with a consciousness of wrongdoing. the evidence here is pretty spectacular, dealing more than 20 instances where he should have become aware that he had lost the election and continuing to push with nothing short of criminal. >> so the key question the people who have been watching this closely and frankly are a little bit impatient, harry, is what does it tell us in the big picture? are we actually any closer to