but defining the middle class is much easier said than done. according to an american community survey from 2013, to be considered middle class in pennsylvania, you need a median household income of about $52,000 a year. in new jersey, it's $70,000. and in delaware, about $58,000. but there's more to those numbers. where the middle class lives, what they do, how they think may have as much of an impact when it comes to defining the middle class as their salary. joining me now are two experts who know more about the middle class in our area than just about anybody. larry eichel is the director of the philadelphia research initiative for the pew charitable trusts. the initiative released an extensive report on the city's middle class several years ago. also joining the conversation, ira goldstein, the president of policy solutions for reinvestment fund. reinvestment fund has done expansive research on philadelphia's middle class neighborhoods. thank you both for coming in. larry eichel: great to be here. rosemary: so, salary. many people think about salary as the way to define the upper class, the middle class, lower class. but in terms of the research you've done, that's just one factor. what are the other factors, and why are they important to consider? larry: well, when we did our report a few years ago, we really did focus on income just because it's-- in some ways, it's the most easily measurable thing. you have the best data on it. and by--the definition we came to, which has become an increasingly popular one, anyone's middle class if you have anywhere from two-thirds to double the regional median income. now, what that means in this area is a household income somewhere between $45,000 and $130,000. i mean, it's a huge range, and obviously family size has a lot to do with it. but that's sort of the definition we had. i mean, the other thing, of course, is that almost everyone thinks they're middle class. you know, when you poll, depending on how you ask the question, sometimes 80% of the public will tell you they're middle class, even though that's probably not the case. rosemary: why is that, ira? ira goldstein: because i think there's aspirational aspects to it. people don't like to think of themselves for social reasons, nobody wants to think themselves as rich or wealthy. everybody has issues and challenges economically. and people don't like to necessarily define themselves as poor either. and so, this middle class is loosely defined as it is as something that people generally aspire to and want to be part of. rosemary: a lot of the research compares what the middle class was defined as and who they were in the 1970s compared to 2013, 2014. where did they live? who are they? what jobs do they have? larry: well, i mean, the jobs certainly have changed a tremendous amount over time. when we looked at philadelphia back in 1970, you know, it was like 80% of the middle class didn't have-- had never been to college. rosemary: right, a high school diploma could still mean you were in the middle class. larry: right, they had--a lot of them had blue collar jobs. that's not true now. the people we defined in the middle class, 50% of them have been to college, either have some credits or a degree. and primarily in white collar jobs. so, and that's been a big change. you know, the city of philadelphia 50 years ago was really a middle class city. i mean, when you mapped it out the way we did, you know, almost the whole city was dominated by the middle class. that's not true anymore. we still have a substantial middle class in the city, but it's quite a bit smaller than it used to be. rosemary: and those manufacturing jobs, those blue collar jobs not as prevalent as it was back in the 70s. larry: oh, that's right. i mean, obviously that's true nationally, and it's particularly true here. ira: yeah, and we think about that in terms of the neighborhoods that people live in. so, if you wanted to sort of get a general idea of what we might consider the middle neighborhoods of philadelphia, they might be the oak lanes, the lower northeast, olney, wynnefield not too far from where we are here. they tend to be places where the home prices are really quite commensurate with the incomes that larry just mentioned. but they also tend to be places where levels of education are pretty solid. they tend to be places where people own their homes. and i think most interestingly from a public policy perspective as well, they tend to also be the neighborhoods that are most racially and ethnically integrated. philadelphia's middle neighborhoods oftentimes are--you know, they're the first or second places that immigrant families move to. and they're actually part of the dynamic that keeps the middle neighborhoods of philadelphia quite vibrant and growing, actually. rosemary: so, compared to the 70s, the middle class in philadelphia is a much more diverse population. larry: absolutely. in the 70s, the middle class was three-quarters or more white. the last one we did our look at it, and it's a few years old now, it was pretty close to 50-50. i think it was still slightly more white than black, but the black percentage was well into the 40s. rosemary: what's the most striking thing you learned about the research? how did it change your view of the middle class? larry: well, i mean, i guess just really the change over time was really striking. and the other thing was that it's interesting, if you look at the city, in recent years, the decline of the middle class has been--has almost stopped. it's pretty gradual. you know, if you look back over time to the 70s and the 80s, the drop in the middle class was just huge in this city. and it's really slowed down. if you look at it from a broader perspective nationally or regionally, you see kind of a gradual decline over time. i mean, nationally, somewhere around-- again, by our definition, somewhere around 50% of the public--of the public is middle class. and that's down from 60 maybe in 1970. rosemary: and in terms of satisfaction of the middle class in philadelphia, are they satisfied? do they have concerns, dissatisfied? ira: yeah, we don't--we have not polled people, so we don't know exactly at that sort of individual level. but if you think about the neighborhoods again that they live in, the middle class population is-- i think it's a population living in neighborhoods where there are some stressors and some, you know, challenges. but then also some strengthening and energizing things. i think the new populations are those things that are sort of propping up and energizing neighborhoods. but they're also places where people are struggling more with foreclosures, they're struggling a little more with elevated eviction rates. the education levels are not rising, they're sort of-- they're higher, but they're, you know, reasonably stable. and i think over the course of time may represent sort of occupational challenges for people. larry: we have-- we have polled. and the interesting thing is sort of if you look at the city by class or by income, what people want isn't very different across those ranges. they want safe neighborhoods. they want schools where they can send their kids and feel good about it. and they want a sense of economic possibility. you know, they want good jobs, a sense of the future. those concerns are pretty universal. rosemary: in terms of the other research about philadelphia being the largest, poorest city in the country, how does this research about the middle class coincide? larry: well, it's interesting. if you look at what's happened to the middle class nationally or in terms of the region, you know, as the middle class has dwindled, sort of both the upper class and the lower class have grown. in the city of philadelphia, that's not the case. as the middle class has dwindled, you know, the people who we would consider upper income, that slice has been pretty constant. it's that slice below, the low income slice, that has grown. and that's where you see the growth in poverty that has got us to the point where we are the poorest large city in america. rosemary: in terms of moving that slice into the middle class, what could help the middle class? what could help lower income philadelphians move into the middle class? larry: well, generally speaking, people think about the opportunities that education present for people. they think about also the kinds of things that are able to support the properties that they own and the neighborhoods that they live in because those are really sort of locational opportunities that are-- and philadelphia is still, you know, pretty good for many of the middle neighborhoods that you think about. those would be the kinds of things that i think are really relevant. i think also across the country, you tend to--you see not so many people focused on these middle class neighborhoods, notwithstanding the fact that every politician is going to talk middle class, middle class, middle class. and we see that around tax and all kinds of other things. the fact of the matter is that most cities pay most attention to the places where they can do their ribbon cuttings because there's really cool and neat and fun things happening. and they pay a lot of attention to the very poor places where it's very easy to deploy your federal dollars because they're categorically eligible, and there's not much challenge. things happen in these middle neighborhoods, but it's not necessarily with a plan and a strategy. the plan and the strategy tends towards the extremes. rosemary: in terms of how to grow the middle class, your final thoughts on this? larry: you know, i mean, it's--you know, i think it's the basics. i mean, it's education, it's jobs, it's a sense of security in the neighborhood. rosemary: and you're--you get the last word on this, ira. ira: i think that that's absolutely right, and i think that, you know, really sort of making sure that there is actually a set of policies and programs that really are geared towards the middle class will help them--will help that middle class expand, and grow, and flourish. right now, i think as larry said, there are some challenges to it, and you see some slippage down. but those basics plus, you know, real purposeful attention i think is going to be part of the solution. rosemary: well, we'll certainly be watching tax reform and also what happens with the philadelphia school district as changes are on the horizon. ira goldstein and larry eichel, thank you so much for being with us. appreciate your time this morning. ira: thank you. larry: thanks. rosemary: next on "nbc10@issue," gameday. we are here. in just hours, the matchup everybody's talking about, the birds, the cowboys. coming up, we'll discuss why philly fans love to hate dallas. dave spadaro: so, we got eagles fans, rightfully so, bristle at the arrogance of the cowboys. but then i think also there's an inherent jealousy. rosemary: bring on dallas. i say that with a smile. the birds play their much anticipated matchup against the dreaded dallas cowboys a little bit later on tonight. it's a sunday night showdown you will see only on nbc 10. philadelphia eagles insider dave spadaro joins us this morning. thanks for being with us, dave. dave: and you. you know, eagles fans say, "bring on dallas," with a snarl, not with a smile. rosemary: all right, so dave, eagles fresh off their bye week. last time they had a mini bye, things were a little rocky out there. dave: yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how the eagles handle this tonight. for 2 weeks, they've been hearing about how great they are, and how the super bowl is in the future. and that can kind of take the focus away from some players, as i've seen through the years. doug pederson has preached all week, "win today, win today, beat dallas this evening." and we will see how mature this eagles team is, i think, going into this primetime game. rosemary: you told me that you think dallas is desperate. dave: yeah, they are a desperate team. they're 5-4. they've got a lot of injuries. their playoff hopes are fading. and so, they need to win every game they can. ezekiel elliott will miss tonight and the four games after this, so they have to win. and i always think that the desperate team in the nfl is the most dangerous team. so, we'll see if the eagles match that urgency tonight. they've played well in arlington, texas. they're 5-4 there. and they know the impact of this game. rosemary: let's talk about the fans. i mean, historic rivalry of epic proportions. where did this rivalry even really originate? and how did it grow to be this big? dave: the league, they started in 1960, the cowboys and the eagles started playing. the cowboys new to the league at that time, eagles dominated early in the 1960s. and then it started to turn, and the eagles went through a very long period of poor football while the cowboys were building. and then there's just become this arrogance. when you deem yourselves america's team, and then you win super bowls, so you bristle--eagles fans, rightfully so, bristle at the arrogance of the cowboys. but then i think also there's an inherent jealousy that the cowboys won a lot of super bowls, and that the eagles have not won a super bowl. so, you combine those two forces and you have a really natural rivalry. while the eagles dislike the cowboys more than anything, cowboys fans consider washington their number one rival. i find that very interesting. but listen, the fans are having a great time right now. there's going to be a bunch of fans at the game tonight in eagles green, and they're going to have a fantastic time. rosemary: i almost wonder if that's a little bit of reverse psychology on the cowboys part to, you know, "philly's not really our big rival." dave: well, but when you look at the history these last 40 years, 50 years, it's been more redskins success than eagles success. although these games have gotten really nasty, with so many memorable moments, snowballs and bounties, and so many crazy things that have happened that it's one of the great rivalries in all of sports. rosemary: so, obviously the eagles have been off, as you said. they have been told how great they are, how the super bowl is in their sights. we know what carson wentz was up to during his time off, doing a little bit of hunting. this is a good thing, right? get him away from the hype. dave: i don't think carson wentz gets--look at that. i mean, he's not hearing super bowl hype wearing that in a blind. rosemary: yeah, a week ago, no. dave: i mean, i know he did a lot of film work then. i mean, he's really--rosemary, he's so advanced mature wise and physically. i mean, he just has the whole package. he doesn't get caught up in all of this stuff. he just--he's our quarterback. he just wants to win games and bring that coveted super bowl to philadelphia. rosemary: our quarterback. and any chance of--any chance he's going to go somewhere? dave: never, ever, ever, ever. don't even start that. rosemary: no, i'm just-- dave: everybody's out there, they've having a nice coffee, they're getting psyched for tonight's game. they don't need to have a little agida* early in the morning. rosemary: no, you're right. good vibes, we're sending good vibes to the eagles. all right, dave spadaro, our eagles insider, thanks so much for being with us. the countdown to kickoff is on tonight. the eagles tackle the cowboys right here on nbc 10. kickoff is at 8:30. stay with us for nbc 10 news and eagles gameday final right after the game. next on "nbc10@issue," a sign of life for books and bookstores. find out why it could make a difference where you live. rosemary: books are back, especially when it comes to popup and independent bookstores. in fact, the pennsylvania academy of fine arts recently launched a new popup space in chestnut hill, where you can buy books and artwork. and it's not just popups. year-round brick and mortar independent bookstores are refusing to die. that's according to the website statista. their research finds the number of independent bookstores is on the rise. last year, there were about 2,300 across the country. that compares to 1,900 back in 2013. joining me now is amy hordes. amy is the north american sales director for phaidon. phaidon is a book publisher based in new york and in london, and your titles focus on the arts, cooking, travel, children's books, so plenty to digest here. thanks so much for being with us. amy hordes: my pleasure. rosemary: so, tell us why bookstores are refusing to die, and how they are surviving and thriving. amy: it's interesting. i think we--throughout history, we've talked a lot about different things dying when a new form of media comes into play. so, movies would die when television became popular. magazines would die when the internet, you know, started to disseminate information. we've definitely seen things change, and we've seen content, you know, present itself in different ways. e-commerce has also been a big factor in all of this. not only is technology catching up with the way that we read and we think about, you know, consuming information, but the way that people find it, purchase it, and engage with it, it's a completely different world. so, i always laugh when people say that books are dying because the truth is not only in my own experience as a reader and someone who consumes books only in print, but i'm on the subway in new york city, i see people--i take pictures of them all the time with paperbacks, hardcovers. some people are e-reading, and that's fine too, but there's room for everything in this--in this environment. rosemary: it seems as though, as new technology has come into this space, people are realizing what they're maybe missing, what they're getting at, say, an independent bookstore, that experience of somebody recommending titles to you. amy: that's exactly right. i think in this--to go back to the age of content, it's a wonderful thing if you're somebody who's fascinated by the world and wants to learn about it. but i think it can be overwhelming. and what independent bookstores do, among many other things, is you used the word "curate," which i think is an important word. they create a space in which you can go in, you can engage. usually, they employ people from the community, so those are people that understand what people are looking for, can pick up on trends, and help identify what the neighborhood-- you know, what's of interest to the neighbors. so, it makes a complicated, kind of chaotic media landscape more comfortable. and a good bookseller understands that and is aware of not only the bestsellers and making sure that they have the things that the people who don't read often are looking for, but also a wide selection of books that reflect what the neighborhood needs and wants. but also aspirationally what the person who's running the store and making the decisions thinks is right for the community. rosemary: you bring up e-reading, ebooks. there are some books that just do not translate. for example, one of your books, one of phaidon's books is annie leibovitz's new book. amy: what a great example. i just got off the plane from a really interesting 3 days in texas with annie on her press part of her book tour. so, annie needs no-- needs no explanation, but she loves books. and for her, even though her work featured heavily in--heavily, rolling stone, vogue, vanity fair, she's identified with those magazines. but for her, the books are the way that people can own her work, can engage with her, work on a daily basis at home. and she's passionate about supporting bookstores, so this tour was fascinating because she sold out 2,500 seat theatres in austin and dallas, and local bookstores handled the book sales. we partnered with museums. that's the other thing that's important to think about. books are not just sold in bookstores anymore. the channels have really broadened. so, we started the tour at one of these arenas. and book people, which is the big independent bookstore in austin, handled the sales. we did an event at the dallas museum of art, they handled the sales. and we finished at neiman marcus, who partnered with us to do their own edition of the book. now, to take a step back, one thing that we did to help independent book sellers benefit from annie's book was that we had her go to china. she was on press with the book, and she pre-signed 3,000 copies that we made available to independent bookstores. so, and to barnes and noble. but it's--i think there's a way that publishers are helping these local and even up to, again, barnes and noble. they--20 years ago, they were the defining place to go, and borders. and i think that a smart publisher realizes that not only do you nurture the traditional channels, but you also keep your eyes and ears open for other ways to help people find your--what you're making and what you're doing. rosemary: and specifically, like that book for example, that is a book that really does fit in the local bookstore in terms of people who are looking for these beautiful photos and pictures that she's taken that maybe they've seen in vanity fair or in other magazines over the years. amy: exactly right. and you know, there are photos of authors, joan didion, there's a beautiful photo of her. there are photos of artists. i mean, annie captured our time. and so, if you're part of the cultural conversation, this is exactly--you're the kind of person that would go to an independent bookstore. and it's--i think there is a synchronicity there, absolutely. rosemary: amy hordes from phaidon books, thank you so much for being with us. amy: thank you. rosemary: that's it for this edition of "nbc10@issue." thank you for being with us. i'm rosemary connors, have a happy and safe thanksgiving. happy turkey day. and of 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