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Anderson Cooper 360

act as a criminal conspiracy and for that matter why are 12 tweets by the former president and a retweet by rudy giuliani also listed as some of the 161 overt acts prosecutors say prove the existence of a criminal conspiracy. last night district attorney fani willis explained. as you examine the indictment, you will see acts that are identified as overt acts, and those that are identified as predicate acts, sometimes called acts of racketeering activity. overt acts are not necessarily crimes under georgia law in isolation, but are alleged to be acts taken in furtherance of the conspiracy. >> back now with the panel. so, michael, it's important because you hear that a lot today, they're charging him for sending out tweets. >> yeah, i mean, think about an overt act like this. it just moves the conspiracy forward a little bit so let's take a bank robbery.

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Anderson Cooper 360

of violation of oath by a public officer. jake tapper, cnn, washington. joining us now alyssa farah griffin who served as communications director in the previous administration and michael moore, cnn political men tater and former obama special adviser jim jones. michael, does it make sense legally that mark meadows because of his position in the federal government at the time would want to be in federal court? >> yeah, it's a good potion to make and i don't blame him for making it. there is a removal statute that allows someone charged with a crime if they were a federal official that involved their federal duties to ask that the case be transferred so there is a limited number of defendants i think you may see with that opportunity. >> would the form -- if it -- >> i expected this from trump all along. when you look that, all the acts, 161 acts that they're

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The Source With Kaitlan Collins

trying to do. clearly if he's trying to use him. the other thing, just reading through the indictment, a lot of it is things that we knew that had happened, what they did. but also i was just struck, 12 of the 161, you know, overt acts as fani willis referred to them were trump's tweets. >> yeah. and public -- and others were public statements. yeah. i mean, this is -- look, we talked about this a lot with the tweets, that they were just things he was doing, there was that joke about i was about to write a story and trump just tweeted it out, right? i mean, this was literally they were planning all these actions and trump just tweeted it out. their argument is going to be the trump team's, that this is free speech and that he had a right to say all of these things. and fani willis's argument is that individual actions don't have to be criminal on their own but part of a broader conspiracy, which is what she's charged they are. it is why trump's aides and lawyers over a very long period of time wanted him to stop tweeting the way he did and would like him to do less truth social posting the way he is now. it just doesn't get heard the way it used to.

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The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell

>> you've got three prosecutors, former prosecutors here one of the things prosecutors always do is we take tiny bits of evidence and use them as building blocks to tell the story that we will ultimately bring to the four during our closing argument. so each block them becomes part of his larger picture. and so each of these 161 different acts that are listed in the indictment are those building blocks, and so you can already see where the d.a. is starting to think ahead towards her closing argument. and the great thing here, with the georgia rico statute, is you don't have to have, well you have to have the predicate act. those are the crimes listed in the statute. but you can also add these additional facts, these additional building blocks that fill in the whole story. and so that is what these other acts, the ones that say they are an over act in furtherance

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CNN Primetime

fani willis called that speech an overt act of that conspiracy, that rico conspiracy. is it a risk to go there, when it comes to criminal charges. does it veer into free speech territory? if she raises what he said on that ellipse that? >> well, if that's all she was hanging her hat on, that was the only action being alleged, that would obviously invite the first amendment struggle. of course, under the brandenburg decision, incitement to imminent lawless action is not protected under the first amendment. in any case, that's not the only action by a long shot. they've got 161 different, specific actions that are alleged. of course, speech makes up the course of conduct, constituting a lot of crimes. for example, you think about an antitrust collusion conspiracy, where businesses get together

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CNN Tonight

coming out of georgia. one of the big issues, of, course is that the attorney, fani willis, the prosecutor, said 19 people no problem. i can do it all in one trial and i'm going to have the trial date set within six months. a lot of people ears perked up and said, wow, what is the moon like on your planet? >> yeah, this is going to be a tough case for her to pursue with all these defendants. they're going to try to sever under georgia law, some are going to move this to federal court, there is going to be a series of arguments about the very acts that she charged. 161 acts in the recount alone, some of them fairly early in the process of the day after the election. the president making speeches publicly, tweeting stuff out on twitter, you know a lot of these things are going to be debated about whether this is free speech, the president can debate whether or not there was fraud in the election and the this is a hard case to bring. there are a lot of really legit

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CNN Primetime

various circuits. he is a one man crime wave and he is going to be in his own law school seminar one day. >> one of the other things i want to ask you about, i know that you dealt with as well, this is trump's speech on the ellipse on january 6th. fani willis called that speech an overt act of that conspiracy, that rico conspiracy. is it a risk to go there when it comes to criminal charges? doesn't veer into free speech territory? if she raises what he said on that ellipse that day? >> if that is all she was hanging her hat on and that's the only action being alleged, then it would obviously invite the first amendment struggle. of course, under the brandenburg decision, incitement to imminent lawless action is not protected under the first amendment. in any case, that's not the only action by a long shot. they have got 161 different specific actions that are alleged and, of course, speech

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The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell

they appear in the indictment in an isolated way, they appear to not be criminal, how do those elements play in front of a rico jury when you are assembling them into the flow of a criminal conspiracy? >> you've got three prosecutors, former prosecutors here and one of the things prosecutors always do is we take tiny bits of evidence and use them as building blocks to tell the story that we will ultimately bring to the fore during our closing argument. so each block them becomes part of his larger picture. and so each of these 161 different acts that are listed in the indictment are those building blocks, and so you can already see where the d. a. is starting to think ahead towards her closing argument. and the great thing here, with the georgia rico statute, is you don't have to have, well

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The Source With Kaitlan Collins

as it's been investigated for the last 2.5 years. but you are correct, he was not one of the coconspirators mansion, as best as we can tell they were, in the jacks mitt indictment. he has not been charged federally. he has been much less of a presence than we are used to around donald trump. and he is one of the people about whom i think the former president is most concerned about what they may or may not have said. certainly a lot of aides around trump or concern about what he may or may not have said in various investigations. >> yeah, and also the questions of how that affects what jack smith is trying to do, clearly he's trying to use him. the other thing, just reading through the indictment, a lot of it is, like, things that we knew that had happened. but i was also struck, 12 of the 161 overt acts, as phony will refer to them, were trump 's tweets. >> yeah, and public -- and others republics it mince. >> yeah. >> i mean, this is -- look, we talked about this a lot with the tweets. they were things he was doing. there is the joke about i was

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CNN This Morning

would mark med dose. anybody working under them also could make this claim that they were working under a federal official and can remove. >> why do you think meadows went first, and by himself? should we read anything into that? is that normal? when i saw that, he wasn't with the other 18, he wasn't with the president, i was wondering. >> following the lawyers is a great point, and that's one thing that people who watch these cases, especially with one with so many defendants, who is representing whom is a critical question and does give you some insight that you might not otherwise have. so i do think that's the question. maybe he's strategize ing here. it's hard to know. but it is a possibility. >> 161 acts in this indictment, 154 of those occurred while trump was president of the united states. that's a pretty strong claim to say to move it.

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