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The Media Show

in the room when decisions are made. and i think that, you know, it's not one or the other. it's not a zero sum game, podcasting. i think that, you know, adam i've known for years. alastair i've known for years. you know, iwill listen to their podcast because i'm interested in the way they do things and i think they're, you know, alistair is a kind of incredibly insightful. adam brilliant journalist. there's room for all of us. and i think that the more we you know, this is a wonderful opportunity to talk about how fabulous podcasting is and how it should grow. but i don't think it'sjust podcasting. ithink, you know, i listened to the news agent's today. the first one. it was informative about a fairly niche subject for a british audience, to be honest about donald trump i mean on the bbc. more than niche. donald trump is potentially the next president of the united states. yeah, i know. but a lot of people don't care about the next president of the united states in this country. they care more about the cost

One , Adam-boulton , Other , Podcasting , Room , Decisions , Game , Sum , Zero , Podcast , Way , Kind

The Media Show

from, but they were more entitled to see that as part of the weather. now, in defence of alastair and peter mandelson who were also associated with that, yes, they were professional media handlers, but they were also people who were prepared and sought out exposing their principals, their cabinet ministers, the prime minister and all the others made them available. the problem we got now is we've got media handlers who are basically trying to shut down access for journalists to the principals. and so we've got the worst of both worlds. we've got both the, kind of, you know, thick of it type of news management and pressure on journalists and even less access for the journalists, and therefore less access for the public to really scrutinise what the politicians are doing. and jon, before we talk about the podcast and how this might change it, in your experience as a bbc journalist, was there ever a situation where you were told to change something because it would in some way

People , Part , Alastair , Media-handlers , Weather , Defence , Yes , Peter-mandelson , Problem , Prime-minister , Journalists , Access

The Media Show

appease the government or please the government? whichever government we're talking about? a long time ago, yeah. i was i mean, you know, it's a long time since i was a political correspondent. i mean, you're going back. but i remember saying something about... i was asked to change something because it was thought that it would make a political debate between the party leaders more difficult. and so there was interference. and i complained about it, because i thought it was you know, i think there should be a very strict line between the b and the c. ie i'm a broadcaster, i'm not part of the corporation. right. and myjob is not to write a script that assists something, but this was a very long time ago. so that was a while ago. but alastair, you also tried to exert pressure on the bbc on a daily basis. did you ever feel that it was trying to appease you, to use the verb that emily maitlis chose in her speech? no, on the contrary. i think that, you know, i don't think i complained

Something , Government , Correspondent , It , Line , Debate , Party , Interference , Leaders , B , C-ie , Bbc-news

The Media Show

into a broadcast environment or a podcasting environment where you need to perhaps give a bit more, jon, than you would have done doing a hit on the today programme? no, ithink that, yeah, i mean, listen, it's as as you know... come on, jon, put yourself out there, stop hiding behind the screen and the camera, give your life. i think i'm getting life coaching live on radio four from alastair campbell. yeah, my philosophy of broadcasting - is it's not about me. i know there are some big egos around here, but. i but isn't there but isn't there isn't there a question just quickly in the last few minutes is what alistair is doing with the rest of politics, jon and adam and nosheen, i would say all of your products, in different ways. the new show and times radio, the guardian podcast, the global podcast, their news products is, is what alastair and rory stewart are doing. you consider that news? i think that alastair and rory, i think that alistair's and rory�*s podcast is a fantastic listen. they take you behind the scenes of politics and how decisions are made and having been

Jon-sopel , Come-on , Ithink , Hit , Podcasting-environment , Broadcast-environment , Hiding , More , Alastair-campbell , Life , Broadcasting , Philosophy

The Media Show

i would say that there are many circumstances i can think of where it's been pointed out that something the prime minister has said is not true. let me ask you a broader point, particularly alastair and adam, but, jon, i'm interested to get you to think back to your experiences in washington and westminster of the daily pressure, adam, that governments try to exert on journalists and news organisations. the the idea that that call that came in after emily maitlis monologue, that it wouldn't be unusual for the government to call up the bbc, would it? no, and it's it actually dates back to a certain extent, in my experience, to alistair's period, where there was a more hands on dealing with the media and a willingness to take up complaints, which i don't think we necessarily experienced either, when gus o'donnell was representing jon major or previously with bernard ingham. i think we knew where they came

Something , Point , Jon-sopel , Adam-boulton , Prime-minister , Alastair , Circumstances , Government , Emily-maitlis , Monologue , It , Journalists

The Media Show

on dealing with the media and a willingness to take up complaints, which i don't think we necessarily experienced either, when gus o'donnell was representing jon major or previously with bernard ingham. i think we knew where they came from, but they were more entitled to see that as part of the weather. now, in defence of alastair and peter mandelson who were also associated with that, yes, they were professional media handlers, but they were also people who were prepared and sought out exposing their principals, their cabinet ministers, the prime minister and all the others made them available. the problem now is we've got media handlers who are basically trying to shut down access forjournalists to the principals. and so we've got the worst of both worlds. we've got both the, kind of, you know, thick of it type of news management and pressure on journalists and even less access for the journalists, and therefore less access for the public to really scrutinise what the politicians are doing. and jon, before we talk about the podcast and how

Social-media , Gus-o-donnell , Complaints , Dealing , Willingness , Bernard-ingham , Jon-major , People , Weather , Prime-minister , Problem , Part

The Media Show

of the brexit referendum. and without rerunning all of those arguments, there is no doubt in my mind that lies were told. there is no doubt in my mind that borisjohnson became prime minister in part on the back of his success in the brexit referendum, and that borisjohnson has told many lies in his political life as prime minister. they are very rarely called out on the bbc... well... ..or across most of the media. well, you're right. you won't hear the word "liar" on the bbc, though i would say that there are many circumstances i can think of where it's been pointed out that something the prime minister has said is not true. let me ask you a broader point, particularly alastair and adam, but, jon, i'm interested to get you to think back to your experiences in washington and westminster of the daily pressure, adam, that governments try to exert on journalists and news organisations. the idea that that call that came in after emily maitlis monologue, that it wouldn't be unusual for the government to call up the bbc, would it? no, and it's it actually dates back to a certain extent, in my experience, to alistair's period, where there was a more hands

Prime-minister , All , Part , Lies , No-doubt , Mind , Borisjohnson , Arguments , Back , Rerunning , Success , Brexit-referendum

The Media Show

but this was a very long time ago. so that was a while ago. but alastair, you also tried to exert pressure on the bbc on a daily basis. did you ever feel that it was trying to appease you, to use the verb that emily maitlis chose in her speech? no, on the contrary. i think that, you know, i don't think i complained about stories nearly as much as the mythology suggest. i think that the one that rightly gets a lot of coverage and still gets a lot of debate relates to to iraq. and i think as bothjon and adam know, i felt that was me taking a very, very strong stance against one piece of reporting by one journalist, who i will go to my grave saying was and is a liar and who coincidentally works for borisjohnson. so i think that on the broader point, yes, adam is right, that we were more robust, but the reason for that goes back to the point i made earlier, the media ecosystem, a lot of it is still set by the written press, which is still very right wing rules. can i come quickly?

Bbc-news , Emily-maitlis , Speech , Pressure , Alastair , Basis , Contrary , Verb , One , Lot , Coverage , Debate

The Media Show

but isn't there but isn't there isn't there a question just quickly in the last few minutes is what alistair is doing with the rest of politics, jon and adam and nosheen, i would say all of your products, in different ways. the new show and times radio, the guardian podcast, the global podcast, their news products is, is what alastair and rory stewart are doing. you consider that news? i think that alastair and rory, i think that alistair's and rory�*s podcast is a fantastic listen. they take you behind the scenes of politics and how decisions are made and having been in the room when decisions are made. and i think that, you know, it's not one or the other. it's not a zero sum game, podcasting. i think that, you know, adam i've known for years. alastair i've known for years. you know, iwill listen to their podcast because i'm interested in the way they do things and i think they're, you know, alistair is a kind of incredibly insightful. adam, brilliant journalist. there's room for all of us. and i think that the more we you know, this is a wonderful opportunity to talk about how fabulous podcasting is and how it should grow. but i don't think it'sjust podcasting.

Podcast , Jon-sopel , Politics , Adam-boulton , Nosheen-iqbal , Rest , Alastair , Ways , Question , Show , Times-radio , News-products

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there about politicians, people can make up their minds, provided that the lies are called out. and i have to say, i think withjohnson�*s premiership, and i think we've seen the same with liz truss in her campaign, the lies are not being called out and are not being called out on a systematic basis. jon, do you recognise, as someone who was based in washington for the last part of your bbc career, the experience within the bbc that alastair is describing? i'm aware of the dangers. i mean, my own experience in washington was, you know, the coverage of donald trump, which was an extraordinary four years, and in some ways a blessing as a journalist to cover a story of such enormity and such significance and exhausting simultaneously. you know, we got to november2020, where... you had to call it. there was 60 plus court cases where donald trump tried to overturn the result of the election and failed. the returning officers, the secretaries of state for each 50 states certified the results. the attorney general said

People , Liz-truss , Politicians , Lies , Campaign , Same , Minds , Premiership , Bbc-news , Someone , Donald-trump , Jon-sopel