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jerry, you were in somalia. there's footage of you being on a rooftop with incoming fire from al shabaab fighters, basically. what do you make of the conflicting reports about whether al shabaab or al qaeda did it, and who is al shabaab and how are they different from al qaeda? >> right, well, first of all, al shabaab was a group of relative nobodies in 2006 during the bush administration. they were a sort of outlier in a group called the islamic courts union, which was largely made up of, almost exclusively made up of somali actors. and these actors meaning players on the scene in somalia. and al shabaab was the sort of group among those that sort of had the most allegiance to al qaeda or affinity for osama bin laden's message, but they had no political sway whatsoever domestically within somalia. the u.s. partnered with the ethiopian military in 2006-2007 and staged an invasion of somalia, and they dismantled this government of the islamic courts union, which was the only government that brought stability in somalia since the blackhawk down episode. so, what happened as a result of
so, what happened as a result of that is that the shabab became the vanguard of what was viewed as a movement to fight off a crusading force backed by the united states. so, al shabaab started to get street credibility within somalia because they were the only ones fighting. the rest of the networks had been disrupted, co-yopted, killed or imprisoned by the americans or ethiopians. so, what happened at the end of the day is that al qaeda was able to get a foothold in somalia and it had never been able to before. bin laden desperately wanted to get into somalia and somalis rejected him. the u.s. invasion with ethiopia opened the door and al shabaab has gotten more militant as the years have gone on. >> and they clearly seem to have an agenda if, in fact, this is somali al shabaab fighters behind this. why would they attack a kenyan mall? >> well, there's a long history of al qaeda in east africa and eventually al shabaab staging attacks in kenya and elsewhere in africa. >> of course the embassy bombings. >> yes, in '98 in tanzania and kenya, but there was also a 2002 attempt to shoot down israeli aircraft in mombasa.
crusading force backed by the united states. so shabaab started to get street credibility within somalia because they were the only ones fighting. the rest of the networks had been disrupted, co-opted, killed or imprisoned by the americans or ethiopians. so, what happened at the end of the day is that al qaeda was able to get a foothold in somalia, and it had never been able to before. bin laden desperately wanted to get into somalia and somalis rejected him. the u.s. invasion with ethiopia opened the door and shabaab has gotten increasing ly militant as the years have gone on. >> and they clearly seem to have an agenda if, in fact, this is somali al shabaab fighters behind this. why would they attack a kenyan mall? >> well, there's a long history of al qaeda in east africa and then eventually al shabaab staging attacks in kenya and elsewhere in africa. >> of course, the embassy bombings. >> yes, in '98 in tanzania and kenya, but there was also a 2002 attempt to shoot down israeli aircraft in mombasa. then you had the bombing at the world cup in 2010 in uganda, an american citizen was killed in that, as well as a number of ugandans. and i think that, you know, if you look at the past two years, kenya has been deeply involved
has since told al jazeera the mall attack was the work of al qaeda, not al shabaab. more on that in a second. president kenyatta said one of his nephews was in the mall and killed in the attack. the chief of the kenyan defense forces said the terrorists are clearly a multinational collection from all over the world. the fbi is looking into reports that americans were among the attackers. "the new york times" photographer tyler hicks happened to be nearby the mall when the siege began. he entered the mall along with police officers and captured these stunning images. >> once i got inside the mall, i could see how tense everyone was, the army and police, how carefully they were moving. they were dashing across open areas, taking extreme care with their cover. it seemed kind of like anywhere you looked there would be another body. people were still hiding in shops. and as the police and the army were moving through, they would either discover people or they would sense that help had arrived and then they would flood out. so, you get kind of moments of silence and then other moments
jerry, you were in somalia. there's footage of you being on a rooftop with incoming fire from al shabaab fighters, basically. what do you make of the conflicting reports about whether al shabaab or al qaeda did it, and who is al shabaab and how are they different from al qaeda? >> right, well, first of all, al shabaab was a group of relative nobodies in 2006 during the bush administration. they were a sort of outlier in a group called the islamic courts union, which was largely made up of, almost exclusively made up of somali actors. and these actors meaning players on the scene in somalia. and al shabaab was the sort of group among those that sort of had the most allegiance to al qaeda or affinity for osama bin laden's message, but they had no political sway whatsoever domestically within somalia. the u.s. partnered with the ethiopian military in 2006-2007 and staged an invasion of somalia, and they dismantled this government of the islamic courts union, which was the only government that brought stability in somalia since the blackhawk down episode.
software engineer, who was in the parking lot with his two daughters said they were throwing grenades like maize to chickens. he and his daughter survived. at last count, at least 62 people have died in the attack, mostly kenyans along with foreigners from britain, france, australia, canada and india. at one point, terrorists started a fire in the mall, which according to security forces, was meant as a diversion. a reported 175 people were wounded in a siege that entered its third day today. at least three assailants have been killed by security forces with at least ten suspects arrested. the attackers also took hostages as the standoff proceeded. >> we have done a search of the building, and we can confirm that the hostages, almost all of them have been evacuated. >> the kenyan foreign minister has since told al jazeera the mall attack was the work of al qaeda, not al shabaab. more on that in just a second. president kenyatta said one of his nephews was in the mall and killed in the attack.
that is that the shabab became the vanguard of what was viewed as a movement to fight off a crusading force backed by the united states. so, al shabaab started to get street credibility within somalia because they were the only ones fighting. the rest of the networks had been disrupted, co-yopted, killed or imprisoned by the americans or ethiopians. so, what happened at the end of the day is that al qaeda was able to get a foothold in somalia and it had never been able to before. bin laden desperately wanted to get into somalia and somalis rejected him. the u.s. invasion with ethiopia opened the door and al shabaab has gotten more militant as the years have gone on. >> and they clearly seem to have an agenda if, in fact, this is somali al shabaab fighters behind this. why would they attack a kenyan mall? >> well, there's a long history of al qaeda in east africa and eventually al shabaab staging attacks in kenya and elsewhere in africa. >> of course the embassy bombings. >> yes, in '98 in tanzania and kenya, but there was also a 2002 attempt to shoot down israeli aircraft in mombasa.
and i reported on this in my book, were letters from fazul to ayman al zawahiri, number two in al qaeda. and what fazul said is shabaab is making a mistake trying to hold territory in somalia and you need to go back to managing savagery. there is a famous al qaeda paper called "the management of savagery," and data is make it impossible for anyone else to govern. make people feel fear and that the government cannot protect them. >> chaos. >> and i think that's part of what we're seeing. but there's no one al shabaab right now, which is why the kenyans -- >> being splintered, and it's ann clear who is exactly krogh the organization. journalist jerry scahill, thank you very much.
and i reported on this in my book, were letters from fazul to ayman al zawahiri, number two in al qaeda. and what fazul said is shabaab is making a mistake trying to hold territory in somalia and you need to go back to managing savagery. there is a famous al qaeda paper called "the management of savagery," and data is make it impossible for anyone else to govern. make people feel fear and that the government cannot protect them. >> chaos. >> and i think that's part of what we're seeing. but there's no one al shabaab right now, which is why the kenyans -- >> being splintered, and it's ann clear who is exactly krogh the organization. journalist jerry scahill, thank you very much. in the back of our mind. a secret hope. that thing we've always wanted to do. it's not about having dreams, it's about reaching them. ♪ an ally for real possibilities. aarp. find tools and direction at aarp.org/possibilities.
wars," producer and writer of the film by the same name. jerry, you were in somalia. there's footage of you being on a rooftop with incoming fire from al shabaab fighters, basically. what do you make of the conflicting reports about whether al shabaab or al qaeda did it, and who is al shabaab and how are they different from al qaeda? >> right, well, first of all, al shabaab was a group of relative nobodies in 2006 during the bush administration. they were a sort of outlier in a group called the islamic courts union, which was largely made up of almost exclusively made up of somali actors. and these actors meaning players on the scene in somalia. and al shabaab was the sort of group among those that sort of had the most allegiance to al qaeda or affinity for osama bin laden's message, but they had no political sway whatsoever domestically within somalia. the u.s. partnered with the ethiopian military in 2006/2007 and staged an invasion of somalia, and they dismantled this government of the islamic courts union, which was the only government that brought stability in somalia since the blackhawk down episode during that regime. so, what happened as a result of that is that the shabaab became the vanguard of what was viewed as a movement to fight off a