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Bidens and ukraine or just investigations with his ambassador to the eu isn't just the potentially incriminating things that may have been said. again, we don't know exactly what was said to gordon sondland, we'll hear it next week. it is also the manner in which the phone call occurred. the phone call between the president of the united states and a top diplomat didn't occur in a secure setting, it was in the open in a restaurant in a country teeming with russian intelligence and could potentially be heard by anyone around. my next guest calls the security ramifications inside. larry pfiffer ...

Things that may have been said. again, we don't know exactly what was said to gordon sondland, we'll hear it next week. it is also the manner in which the phone call reportedly occurred. the phone call between the president of the united states and a top diplomat didn't occur in a secure setting, it was in the open in a restaurant in a country teeming with russian intelligence and could potentially be heard by anyone around. at least some of the people at the table heard it apparently. my next guest calls the security ramifications insane. larry pfiffer served as chief of staff to cia director...

With his ambassador about foreign policy issues? >> very unusual, joy. number one, normally an ambassador doesn't talk to the president of the united states on any kind of telephone call on a routine basis. number two, you have this being done over a nonsecured device that could be readily intercepted by a number of foreign governments but in this case particularly russia given how wired the country of ukraine is by russian intelligence. >> now, you did write in -- you said to "the washington post" -- you quoted by saying the security ramifications are insane. using an open cellphone to commun...

That could be readily interseptded by a number of foreign governments but in this case particularly russia given how wired the country of ukraine is by russian intelligence. >> now, you did write in -- you said to "the washington post" -- you quoted by saying the security ramifications are insane. using an open cellphone to communicate with the president of the united states in a country you can almost take it to bank that the russians were listening in on the call. would you presume that the russians have a recording of the call, a transcript of the call? basically information they now hold o...

Public to fully grasp and understand. but if sondland can say and can confirm what bill taylor heard from his aide, that trump feels far more interested in joe biden and the investigations as opposed to american interest in ukraine, geopolitics more broadly, that is a way in which i think the american people could be able to see how the alleged quid pro quo affected american interest in realtime. it is no longer a hypothetical, and that sort of concreteness, i think, could really elevate the democratic argument against this president. >> and carl bernstein, to you. politics completely aside to...