debate in milwaukee. we're going to get the score cards. jonathan alter, what do you make of that first hour? >> it was much calmer, but they were living in cloud coocoo land. they're talking about trillions in tax cuts. they're talking about a hole in the deficit. it's not even trickle down economic, it's right wing coocoo economics. they're talk act economics that are out of touch, not only with political reality, but with what would happen with this country if their plans were enacted. and we would have massive deficits, as far as the eye could see. the moderators are trying to bring some of that sanity into the debate without much success. >> stuart stevens, your scorecard at this point? >> i think ted cruz is having a good night being ted cruz. he's someone who knows how to dedebate. he knows his market and is going after it. and i think john kasich is smart to go after donald trurp. i think people should do it more. i think donald trump, when you attack him, he looks small. and he should attack him for his smallness. >> he's going after him, as is jeb bush a lit bit, over this deporting of the mexican immigrants, sending 11 million back and how that's inhumane. but i've got to say, to that audience, this is not what they want to hear. i mean, am i -- tell us from the inside republican perspective how that's playing, let's say, outside of the theatre where they're doing this debate, because you're not going to get any cheers in that audience by going against trump on that immigrati immigration. >> that's one of the dangers of audiences in the debate. you can start playing to the crowd. whenever you do that, it's why the first hit of crack is free. it's addicting and it ear a terrible thing to let yourself fall into in a debate. listen, i think you've got to dance with the one that brung you. and if you're against this idea of deporting 11 million people, which every reasonable politician and person should be, and it's never going to happen i think you ought to go after it and point out why it's absurd. i mean, look, if that passes, we should all buy stock in bloomberg buses. because it's going to take a lot of buses to deport 11 million people. >> 100,000 bus, stuart. >> it's absurd. and if you really look at the data on this, nobody believes it's going to happen. i think when people say things they know aren't going to happen, i think you can get credit for calling them out on the absurdity of it. >> how do you see it after that first hour? >> well, i agree kind of with both assessments. you look at this and you say it's the aesop's fable, it's a little crazy. america is a land of immigrants. they get applause when they say we're going to send people home and rip families apart. while they claim to be family value people. they claim they want to help people because we need jobs in america and people are suffering, but then they say, well, god knows we can't raise minimum wage. some suggest we ought to lower it, for god's sake. if you wage minimum wage to $15, it's going to cost about 5 cents to double that on goods and services if it's passed entirely on to the consumer. 5 cents for a big mac. i don't know what a big mac costs. is it $5? i can afford $5.05. that's nothing to me, but to those people, $15,000 in their pocket, this is america. these guys are talking about the american dream, but apparently it's only for the richest of the rich. if you're poor, ben carson says just work harder. just work harder, you'll be fine. it's not about immigration in so many ways, lawrence. it's about pay people a wage that works. it will create jobs. those people will take that money, they'll go out and they'll buy big macs and shoes. and they'll get the economy moving again. but we don't care about what's strange in the first hour is it's just surreal. they talk about family values, they talk about, we're america, we've got to do -- and everything they spew seems to be anti-american. where did this country come from? >> ben carson twice mentioned 1913. that's when the federal reserve was created and the federal income tax was put in. he wants to turn the clock back to pre1913. not just pre-new deal, but ppr pre federal income tax. it's really kind of crazy we call this a conservative political party. there's nothing conservative about it. big c conservative, small c con receiver tif, they shouldn't be called conservatives anymore. they are radicals who want radical change in the american system. i wish the press and public would see this more for what it is. >> jeb bush to my money had his first solid round in any of the debates so far. his first answer coming out of the gate, clearly was prepared. and i mean that in a positive way. he had obviously done some real prep. he turned it into an economic attack on both president obama and hillary clinton. for the first time he sounded like he was ready to play this game. >> i feel like jeb bush's biggest mistake is trying to do too much. he ought to be ability getting on base. if he tries too hard, it would seem disingenuous. there's one thing that's important. 28% of the country thinks we're going in the right direction. they're operating on a wrong track environment. there's an argument that's going to be how to decide an election. are we going to be one in which a third term of barack obama can be successfully argued a year from now or can we not? we don't know the answer to that, but these guys are definitely digging into the wrong track argument. >> you mentioned the minimum wage, it was a real softball question at a republican debate. would you raise the minimum wage, they all said no. including ben carson. let's listen to what ben carson said about the minimum wage just a few months ago. >> what about minimum wage? >> i think it probably should be higher. >> so steve, exact opposite answer tonight. a few months ago he thinks the minimum wage should be higher. tonight, ben carson goes with the chorus, absolutely no increase in the minimum wage. >> yeah, it is kind of the weather vain team out there. i'm going to say what i think is going to give me votes. why do we think we have two outsiders, trump and carson, that are leading the fold. it's not so much what they've said. it's that people are saying enough already. we're hurting out here. college tuition is up 1,800% since 1978. 1,800%. only 1 out of 4, lawrence, 1 out of 4 high school graduates in america is headed now to graduate from college. you can not be a great nation anymore if 3 out of 4 of your young people only have a high school degree. that's what people worry about. they do worry about jobs. they do worry about wages. they do worry about health care. these guys stand up there and say, well, people aren't better under obamacare. ask the 17 million people who got healthcare under obamacare what they think. the arrogance of these governors and these folks that live high and somehow sit out will and say well, i'm fighting for the poor person, but i don't want you to have health care. god knows we're not going to wage your wages. i'm fighting to get you more jobs, but just get another one, get two or three. that's the problem. you look at these guys and it really is a weather vain. they say what they think the voters want to hear, while they claim they're patriotic and fighting for americans. they're only fighting for a sliver of americans. that's been the problem. every american knows it out there. that's why they're upset and looking for an outsider. i think if i were these guy, i would be very careful. say what you want in a primary, if you get in a general election, these words are go i think to come back to haunt you. and they get the flip flop, these guys are going to have to live with what they do in these primaries. it's not going to serve them well. >> it's interesting we have stuart stevens on tonight, chief strategist for mitt romney. i'm interested in what stuart thinks of this immigration argument. kasich and bush said you can't deport 11 million people. >> they tried to say the reasonable thing to an unreasonable audience. >> that makes it harder for them to win the nomination, but easier for them to win the white house. do you agree with that stuart? your guy got 28% of the the latino vote. you can't get elected president with 2% of the latino vote. and donald trump was nominated, he would get less than 10% la n latino vote and is unelectable. don't they have to take on the trump orthodoxy in order to have any chance of actually winning the presidency? >> i think b there's variations here. i think you have to break down the argument. what no one believes is that we're going to deport 11 million people. so the idea of being against something that no one believes is actually pretty easy. and you ought to take that battle and you ought to point it out as absurd, because it reflects a sort of illegitimacy of thought that someone is presenting, as you say, to appeal to an audience. now, the idea that you're going to have limits on illegal immigration, that resonates with people. and that makes sense. there's two different arguments. >> but how do you get past the 29% of the latino vote that your guy got the last time? and if you can't, can you be elected president of the united states? >> listen, the great problem with republicans is with non-white voters. you've got to expand that. immigration is one. we'll talk about it more. >> we're going to take a quick break here. coming up in tonight's "last word" the one brave candidate who has said the right thing about god and politics. s a firs. at&t and directv are now one. so get ready to laugh here and cry here. scream over here and freak out over there! and maybe go back to laughing here. and crying there. try not to laugh here though, it's rude. and maybe don't cry here, people will get the wrong idea. introducing the all in one plan. only from directv and at&t. hey! how are you?g? where are we watching the game? you'll see. i think my boys have a shot this year. yeah, especially with this new offense we're running... i mean, our running back is a beast. once he hits the hole and breaks through the secondary, oh he's gone. and our linebackers and dbs dish out punishment, and never quit. ♪ you didn't expect this did you? no i didn't. the nissan altima. there's a fun side to every drive. nissan. innovation that excites. it took joel silverman years to become a master dog trainer. but only a few commands to master depositing checks at chase atms. technology designed for you. so you can easily master the way you bank. >> breaking news from missouri tonight. police at university of missouri have increased security after a threat was called in. one day after the university system president resigned in the midst of protests, that threat comes the same day that the university system appointed an interim vice chancellor for inclusion, diversity and equity. we're joined by phone from columbia, missouri. what's the situation there tonight? >> reporter: well, lawrence, the threat was called into the black culture center on campus. there was a meeting between the missouri legislative black caucus and a group of concerned students. it was a member of the caucus who actually took that phone call where the threat was called in. university police locked down the building. they did a sweep of the building. there was nothing found and there have been no arrests right now. there's also been some blasts on social media, specifically the an anonymous app. one of the threats says that some of you will all right, don't come to school tomorrow. university security says they are aware of these social media threats. they say they are increasing security to the campus. now, security already very tight. there's been a number of sit-ins and demonstrations on campus as well as increased media presence the last two days. ever since the football team announced they would not practice or play until the then university system president stepped down following what some described as an inadequate response to racial incidents on campus. yesterday, the president did step down, followed by the chancellor. the athletes resumed their practices. they were at one of that you are meetings tonight when that threat was called in. >> sarah dallof, thank you very much for joining us. up next, hillary clinton versus marco rubio. take the zantac it challenge! pill works fast? 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(announcer vo) it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. and sleep deprived. bring us those who want to feel well rested. aleve pm. the only one to combine a sleep aid... plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. be a morning person again with aleve pm. >> john jordan, the owner of jordan winery, a republican donor, is now formally backing florida senator marco rubio, with a super pac named baby got pac. >> a world gone out of control and getting worse. a shaky economy leaves millions behind. while washington, d.c. and wall street are doing just fine. and they wonder why they're angry. so we started to make this ad, we had to decide which conservative candidate for president to support. ted cruz, the bold and brilliant conservative mind? donald trump, a leader in business and media? ben carson, world renounced neurosurgeon and faithful conservative? it's a tough choice. so you know who we asked, hillary clinton and the democrats. for once, they told the truth. they admitted there's one candidate who scares hillary clinton. and that's senator marco rubio. democrats say he's the one they don't want to face. bill clinton even calls him the biggest threat. when the media and the democrats tell republicans who they're afraid to run against, that tells us all we need to go. baby got pac is responsible for the content of this message. >> jonathan alter, i it looks like rubio wants to go against hillary. yeah, it's interesting because the money is moving to rubio for this reasons that the super ac indicated the big money on wall street and elsewhere believes he has the best shot at beating hillary clinton. every fox news few viewer is an armchair pundit. that message goes down to the voters to some exat the present time, primary voters and that rubio gets some support for that reason. but remember, trump and carson are between 16 and 1 points ahead right now. this is not a close race in the polls. >> what about that, hillary clinton and the democrats most fear marco rubio among all those candidates? >> i'm not certain of that. there's been some e-mail traffic. my guess is they're not real certain what's going to happen. not many of us are would say the trump balloon and carson balloon would last. everyone thought it would float away. it's not done that. the gap is so large right now, rubio has a long way to go. i'm just not sure that will happen. i think the voters on the republican side are so disillusioned with kind of the mainstream candidates, they're so uncertain about the outsider candidates. they kind of like carson, h ehas his troubles. they're a little afraid of trump. it's kind of natural they would gravitate to others in the field. i think the real test will be how marco rubio responds. personally i wonder if he's ready, but we'll find out. i don't think, though, that when the spotlight comes on him, there's a part of me that says he has to be ready to take that gaunt let and run with it. he's got to have the resources. as jonathan pointed out, he's getting more money. but that vote is so spread out, where is h egoing to get all his votes? that would be my concern if i'm sitting in marco rubio's camp. >> he certainly had a sharp debate performance in the first hour. but you have long predicted the trump bubble will burst and donald trump won't make it very far into the actual casting of votes once we get into next year and the primaries. is marco rubio currently positioned to move into the gap that you predict donald trump will eventually open up. >> i'm sticking with that trump prediction until it's not true. i just look at the state. it's all about who's going to win the first four states. i don't see a scenario where you can lose the first four and come back. it's never happened. if you're in second and third place in florida and you lose the first four, i don't see why that advances you to first. who's going to win iowa and new hampshire and south carolina? who's going to win nevada? i really think that's what really matters here. these national polls are interesting. i pick them apart by everybody. but as far as the people that are going to vote, it tells you about who's going to win the louisiana governor's race by polling in mississippi, which doesn't tell you very much. >> maybe marco rubio in florida, something like that. and maybe it will sake you six or eight before you get to the candidates you're really dealing with. >> yeah. so karl rove says that there could be what is every reporter's dream, a brokered convention. because the primaries up until march 15 are all proportional voting. they're not winner take all. so they could split the vote and then you could get into a situation where something like the trump/cruz alliance, they have a detente. they haven't been criticizing each other at all. that could become significant. if if cruz is leading and trump wants to leave without being totally humiliated, heck give his support to cruz or conceivably vice versa. and also of these things could come into a play that could be absolutely fascinating for all of us watching. not very helpful to the republican party. >> i think when candidates lose, they lose their voters. they end up not having anything to trade. won each of those four primaries. particularly if those winners would not do well in a general el'eggs. if trump won, say, new hampshire, which i think stayed in a more likely bet than iowa, carson won iowa. cruz won south carolina, rand paul won nevada. then i think we would be off to the if you thinker games and i think theoretically, a good candidate could emerge post. but i don't think that's gong to happen. >> wouldn't it be fun -- >> can i jump in? lawrence? i generally agree with what stu is saying. i think iowa and new hampshire really do winnow and if you don't come in first or second or you ear marginalized there, it's really going to be difficult to come back. that's where if marco rubio doesn't come in first or second, he may never get to florida. rudy giuliani said i'm going to plant my flag in florida and never quite got there. i really do think the power of this co-elessing of the field, people want to winnow this thing down. voters do, reporters do. you want to kwom in first or second or come in close enough to be credible in new hampshire. i don't think you necessarily get a door prize to go to south carolina. >> i don't agree with that. what's different this time is the super pacs. it used to be the only reason people dropped out is they didn't have any money left. now a lot of them are going to have a super pac money. now they can go on for another few weeks and do well in the primarie primaries, try their luck again, maybe hope for a change with the debate. i'm not sure that you're going to see all these guys dropping out early. >> i'm not sure either. but i really do think, though, the free media that you get, the earned media that's worth millions of dollars, you win iowa and new hampshire, you lead the news, the super pac better have a ton of money. remember now, the super pac is supporting a loser, it's harder to run the ad that says steve lost the first three primary, but by god, let's stick with him. i just think history would suggest you better do well early or the system flushes you out. i would still bet on that, even though i agree with you, super pacs have changed the dynamic of our political system in a bad way, i believe. but i still believe the power of you've got to do well early or you get marginalized really quickly in this game. >> jonathan alter and stuart stevens. thanks for joining us tonight. coming up, president obama makes history, this time it's magazine history. look at you, saving money on your medicare part d prescriptions. at walgreens, we call that "carpe med diem." that's almost latin for "seize the day to get more out of life and medicare part d." from one-dollar copays on select plans... ...to now reward points on all prescriptions, walgreens has you covered. so drop by and seize the savings! walgreens. at the corner of happy and healthy. just serve classy snacks and bew a gracious host,iday party. no matter who shows up. 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for all binge watchers. movie geeks. sports freaks. x1 from xfinity will change the way you experience tv. president obama is now the first president to pose for a photograph for the cover of "out" magazine. that cover was revealed today, showing the president as the ally of the year for the lgbt community today. the president formally endorsed the equality act, which was introduced in the senate in july by democratic senators cory booker, tammy baldwin and jeff berkel berkeley. the bill would amend the civil rights act to include a ban of discrimination on sexual orientation or gender identity. >> that bill is historic legislation that would advance the cause of equality for millions of americans. we look forward to working with congress to ensure the legislative process produces a result, that balances both the bedrock principles of civil rights like i just described with the religious liberty that we hold dear in this country. >> joining us now, the senior editor for politics and policy at wnyc radio and back with us, congratulations. you're in the magazine, too as one of the top 100 allies, i guess, we call them. what's the significance of this? it's a magazine. let's talk about the cultural significance of it. we'll get to the politics in a second. >> well, in one sense, it's a landmark shift, but in another sense, it's sort of a natural progression, if you look at what's happened in this country over the last 20 years. 20 years ago, fewer than a third of americans supported gay marriage. now more than 2/3 of americans support gay marriage. so there's been a real flip. and when, for example, the supreme court said gay marriage was legal in all 50 states back in june, the president, or his staff, lit up the white house 234 colors. that is sort of where the country is now. and it does telegraph a possible issue in the general election because all of the republican candidates are opposed to same-sex marriage. the democrats are not. but as the population ages, there are fewer and fewer opponents that are very active in republican primaries. but then the candidate who comes oit of this bloody process then has to face a general electorate, which is more moderate in its views. >> so coincidence that the white house and the president comes out in favor of the equality act today on the same day the magazine cover is revealed? >> well, i mean, none of this is ever coincidence exactly. i mean, i do think that this is consistent with what the president has articulated, that he supports equality in employment. but again, this is something that the majority of the public does, too. it plis out differently in different places, like in houston last week, there was a ballot me measure where people think it was about allowing men in women's bathrooms and it was defeated. so there is a resistance in the american populous to supporting something they perceive as a special right. but what it's going to be up to, all the proponents of these bills to argue is that this is something that is consistent with what, in fact, people already think is on the books. >> steve, this bill is introduced in a republican-controlled senate. there's a republican-controlled house. it has to somehow get hearings in both of those chambers. it has to get votes in the judiciary committee and the house judiciary committee in the senate. and that seems impossible under republican control. what is the president and what are the democrats doing here, other than -- and this is a perfectly legitimate thing to do with legislation -- setting their objectives, stating their objectives in legislation that they know can't get anywhere right now, but they will have it there in the hopes that they can get it somewhere after the next election. >> i think that's right. what is there to fear with equality? discrimination has done more harm. it is wrok whng what houston di. it's wrong that they allow discrimination. this is our children, for god's sakes. these people that wrap themselves in the old testament and say, quell, the old tewell,t said homosexuality is wrong. but the in the new testament, jesus said 41 times, if you believe you're in hefb. -- heaven. discrimination has no place in this country. if we can't with a open heart and mind fight that be thele and say if it's discrimination against gays and transgender, what is it tomorrow? stop it, what do we fear? all people are equal. we take pride in that in this country. we've got to have that battle. i understand it might not win, but have at it. and take their arguments against them. when they throw religion at them and kim davis said i had to adhere to the bible. what are you saying about jesus, what was jesus saying when he says if you believe you're in? i think we have to have that argument with them so i'm all for it. i think it's the right thing to do. >> andrea, some interesting eln'ts in these poles. 69% are in favor of this kind of nondiscrimination protection. 75% believe we already have it in law. >> right. and that 75% believing we already have it creates certain complications. that's not an entirely positive polling result. >> right, right, right. in the last decade, you may remember, for example, george w. bush in 200 4, there were a lot of ballot measures around the country involving same-sex marriage in what opponents saw as special rights for lesbians and gays. it helped george w. bush. i think what's interesting is that americans have moved so far from that position. so, you know, i think it will be interesting to see how it does play out. but the supreme court settled the issue of same-sex marriage, and i think that in itself changed a lot of minds. >> but when 75% believe we already have these protection, doesn't that in a certain way possibly undermine the drive to get these protections, because it will then sound like, oh, you're getting something extra special. >> it certainly is a challenge to that. but as a lot of people pointed out, after the supreme court decision, in america, you can get married on saturday and fired on monday and both can be legal. >> thank you both for joining us. coming up, the russian sports doping scandal. 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remedial work in time to make sure that russian athletes can compete. if they don't, then it has to play itself out and the outcome may be that there are no russian track and field athletes in rio. >> russia's track and field team could face a band from the 2016 olympics and the loss of medals after independent commission set up by the world anti-tauping agency found russian athletes participated in state-sponsored, state-organized doping. according to the commission's report, the acceptance of cheating at all levels is widespread and of long standing. examples of the cheating found include russian athletes used false identities to invade testing, intentional and malicious testing of more than 1,400 samples by a moscow lab. responsible for testing athletes and visits by russian security agents and direct intimidation and interference by the russian state at the moscow lab. today, the head of the russian athletics federation said the corruption you've mentioned have taken place several years ago. in any case currently, it does not exist. the russian sports minister said this yesterday. >> >>. >> translator: so these allegations really sound unbased and really fictional, since russia's anti-doping agencies today are very independent. >> joining us now the director of the centers of strategic and international studies. matthew, in sports, your article today says things like this are going on all over the world in different sports organizations. the russian version is particularly heavy handed involving state agents and all that sort of thing. but you for one are not that surprised. >> i'm not surprised at all. but i do think it's a mistake if we look at this and say this is a russian problem. you know, this is like the soviet era, russians back to what they've always been doing and back to the east germans of the 1970s. americans have proven themselves to be pretty good cheaters, too. it happens all over the world. it happens in cane yeah, it happens in jamaica. and, you know, this is not just specific to russia. that's not to let the russians off the hook, because a lot of the stuff in this report is explosive, it's sort of unbelievable, it's not something that happened in the past. there were doping control officers in june at the race walking camp. that uncovered a bunch of, you know, faulty tests. and this is not something that the russians can just sort of sweep away by their statements. >> olga there does seem to be a uniquely russian quality. one athlete said he thought his life was in danger. he thought if he did anything about it, he might accidentally get in a car accident. and this involves in the russian government's complete involvement in the doping scandal, something you don't certainly find in any of the american versions of this. you don't find -- to be the equivalent of the fbi going into the testing labs here in the united states and basically seizing the samples and helping destroy them and conspiring all that. and so it brings me to the question of what you might see in this as being peculiarly russian. >> so i don't know if it's peculiarly russian. i do think there's a huge difference between the tour de france, where it is about individuals, it's about team, and this situation where the report documents is government involvement in a system that is designed to dope athlete, to use performance-enhancing drugs, to destroy evidence. and yes, people do this all over the world, but to have the government involved in this, to have the fsb, as you said, the equivalent of the fbi showing up act tiffly involved, that is, you know, that's a different sort of beast. i'm not going to say there's anything particularly russian about it. i can imagine that it's possible for another country to do something similar, but in this case, it does seem to be russia that's doing it. >> olga, when i look at vladimir putin in his stage and kind of fake hockey game where is everyone on the other team just gets out of his way and lets him score goals, and then i see this kind of rigging, there seems to be something in putin's view of these kinds of things that we can never lose, we can never be perceived as losing at anything. >> well, and there is a strong and generally very proud pra tra decision of -- tradition of athletics in russia and i think there is a lot of russian pride that gets tied up in sports and athletic contests. and there have been stories of 6 russian government -- soviet russian involvement in cheating. now you're seeing russian government involvement. and again, the sort of systemic approach, which some people do think harkens back to these things that you saw in the soviet union and the warsaw pact. >> matthew, i learned in your article this is a completely untrustworthy system around the world. we leave the testing to the individual countries and they get to set up their own individual apparatus for this. >> yeah. the it's completely absurd. what you need is you need an independent, international, third party with no stake in the game that just wants to catch the bad guys. >> and nobody is ready to pay for that. >> that's the problem. everyone says oh, this would be a great idea and nobody puts up the money for it. and the money is there, it's just a matter of having the willpower to actually write the checks and fund this system. taxpayers pay for the police. there's no reason why sports leagues and federations shouldn't pay for the people to keep them honest. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. coming up, the bravest thing that any presidential candidate has said this year. hint, the candidate's first game begins with a "b." and it's not about socialism. at ally bank no branches equals great rates. it's a fact. kind of like playing the boss equals the boss wins. wow! watching fis great...ether ...but i think women would agree... ...huddling with their man after the game is nice too. the thing is, about half of men over 40 have some degree of erectile dysfunction. well, viagra helps guys with ed get and keep an erection. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. ask your doctor about viagra. now available in new single packs. up next, bernie sanders gets tonight's "last word." well, right now you can get 15 gigs for the price of 10. that's 5 extra gigs for the same price. so five more gigs for the same price? yea, allow me to demonstrate. do you like your pretzel? yea. okay, uh, may i? 50% more data for the same price. i like this metaphor. oh, it's even better with funnel cakes. but very sticky. now get 15 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right away. don't lose another moment to the flu. when there's flu, tamiflu. any president who doesn't begin every day on his knees isn't fit to be commander in chief in this country. >> amen. amen. >> unfortunately for ted cruz, the founder fathers forgot to put that in the constitution. the constitution says the quality for being president are natural born citizen at least 35 years old, resident of the united states for at least the last 14 years. nothing in there about the president must believe in and get on his or her knees to pray to a god of any kind. there is no religious test for holding office in this country, although politicians and the media act as if there is. >> i go to church and i love god and i love my church. >> i am a methodist both by birth and by choice. i was born into a methodist family. parents, grandparents, great grandparents climbing to go all the way back to the coal fields hearing the wesleys preach. >> i started reading the bible and i think it was like romans. got about to there and i realized that jesus was my savior. and i accepted h him. >> this country has been extraordinarily bles blessed and we have honored that blessing and that's why goes has continued to bless up. >> are you really a creationist. do you sub krieb to edscribe toe and that's where we came from? >> the candidates were actually asked which tax plan would god endorse. even liberal democrats who profess a belief in the importance of church and state do not believe in the separation of church and politics. they frequently invoke god in speeches and they will answer any question about their religious believes at length if it is somehow relevant to governing. president obama in his now famous cover interview for "out" magazine, which we talked about earlier tonight, he actually felt compelled in that interview about lgbt rights to say, and i quote, i am a man of faith. they all do it, all the time. democrat and republican, all except one. as polls have shown there is nothing braver in american politics than refusing to talk about religion, refusing to talk about your belief or disbelief in god. that bravery was displayed by one of the presidential candidates in the most unlikely of venue, "the jimmy kimmel show." when the candidate was asked if he believed in god, he did not say it's none of your business, but he did not say yes or no. he acknowledged the frame of the question in his first few words but then didn't answer it and used it instead as another launching pad into the basic message of his campaign. it was the bravest moment thus far in the presidential campaign. a candidate offered a chance on national television to pander on religion, and the candidate refuses to do that. that candidate gets tonight's "last word." >> a moment ago you said god forbid. you say you're culturally jewish. you don't feel religious. do you believe in god and do you think that's important to the people of the united states? >> well, i am who i am and what i believe in and what my spirituality is about is that we're all in this together. it's not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people. that we should not be living -- and this is not judaism. this is what pope francis is talking about. we cannot just worship billionaires and the making of more and more money. life is more than that. we are living in a nation today which has seen a proliferation of millionaires and billionaires, massive income and wealth inequality. and you we are the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right. the only country that doesn't have paid family and medical leave. many other countries are providing free to wish and in their public colleges and universities prince so essentially what i think is that we do best as human beings. we fulfill our lives when we work gather rather than say, hey, i want it all, and i don't care about the hungry kid down the street. i don't think that is what america should be about. [ applause ] >> special live coverage of the republican presidential debate with chris matthews is next. commotion in the boardroom. let's play hardball.