caioning sponsored by public affairs televisn >> this week "bill moyers journal." >> moyers: peoe take to the streets. >> sdenly we have a growing vement of people who want to geout on the streets, put pressuren the banks. ey recognize it's a david an goliath fight and it's oy through their action that wee gointo make things happen. >> though it a david and goliath figh we should remember that sometimes david wins. >> moyers: and a pple's history of the united states >> docracy doesn't come from the top. it comes frothe bottom. democry is not what governments doit's what people . >>oyers: historian, howard zinn. stay tuned >> from our studios in new yo, bill moyers. >>oyers: welcome to the journal. there's only one w to counter the power organized money, and that with the power of organized pele. this ithe theme of our oadcast this week. we've l seen in recent months how the insunce companies, the drug cartels, walltreet bankers, corporate lobes and other powerful interts are rehing deep into their pockets to stifle efforts at reform. and they've been wning. it's been a year since t big financial firms ew a hole in the economy antook down the jobs, wages,ensions and homes of milons of people. they wou have gone down too-- devoured by thr own greed-- were it not for the taxpayer bailout. bunow, major banks and securities firms are on ack to patheir employees up to $140 biion in compensation this year. that's me than the combined budgets of the dartments of commerce, educatn, energy, housing and ban development, e national science foundatio d the environmental protecti agency. goldman sachs-he godfather of wall stree is projected to earn around $45 billion is year inet income with its ployees slated to receive an average paycheck of $7,000. but get this. just thiweek, goldman nounced that its top 30 executiv will forego their usual big cash bonus in sponse to public outrage over raway compensation dls. ybe people in the streets ar getting througat last to wall street. here's whai mean. >> are you tired of predory lenders? aryou tired of sub-prime mortgages? are you tired of the bks? hallelujah. >> moyer you might have thought this was an old-me reval. >> somebody say "i'm tired! i'm tired!" >> moyers: but this was not about the life herfter, these people want a beer world in the re and now. >> banks got bailed ou we gotold out! >> moyers: so earliethis fall, from forecsure blighted california and small farming wns in iowa and the struggli suburbs ofhe east coast, they came tchicago to take on the financial giants whosereed and reckless gambling brought e american economy to its kns. >> wre losing jobs. we're losing state emploes. we're losing industry and businesses. we're losing farms and hom. and meanwhile, theseeople across the street are ying to divvy up their recd profits, in tenof millions of dollars rth of bonuses. and that not fair, it's not fair >> moyers: across the stet, the erican bankers association was lding its annual convention. the symbol, to theserotesters, of a system turned upside wn. >> what it appears is th banks are getting rich. some of the employees and offirs are getting raises while we'rseeing morhomes go under anpeople suffering in the community. what we' trying to do is to let the banks know, ey have more responsibility toake the money. they hava responsibility to help educate and to form and to worwith community groups to stop the forlosures. we need a moratorium on forecloses in the state. we need to addressany of the concerns of small businessesho are trying to keep aoat, able to get loans and aess the loans- the money thawas given to the banks. we need a flow down, wdon't need trickle down. we need a flow down at thi particular point. >> here chicago, in the last two years, we've h foreclosure filings double, in a two-yr period. forecloses were already a big problem in 26, but they jumped up to 20,000 fings in 2008. we have a neighborhoodn chicago thatas 200 new foreclosure fings this year per square me. so, communities are hurtg. that story's not gting out. these arthe same folks that ca up with the ideas that led to 30 years of deregation, and we've seen how that work out. they created the economi isis. they created t foreclosure crisis. th needed billions and billions of ilout dollars. and now they're lobbying to ll coon sense reforms who would prect every day people. >> a.b.a you're the worst. time tput the people first! >> moyers: from the banker convention the protests moved on to thchicago offices of goldman sachs... >> goldman sucks! goman sucks! >> moyers: ...that globa goliath who's on track to vvy up the cpanies richest bonus booty ever. >> we're firedp! can't take it no me! >> you took our tadollars. we baileyou out. at least have considerion for the people whore flooding and feeding your bank accountsyour salaries. there's noompassion. there's ju their own self-interest,heir own greed. and they just want to contin with t same cycle, the same old thing. 's just if you have tide, yo ha the original tide, and then they lie and say, "we gothe new and better tide,but it's t a new and better tide, it' the same product. >>oyers: from there, it was nearby branch of wells fargo where protestersrowded into the bankobby and, for a short time, disrupted business as usua >> i'll te you what, the bankers havet seen anything. the bankers are joying the money that our goverent gave them. it's time for on main street to rea out to these folks and tell them, "we want real reform." and when do we wt it? >> now! when do we want it? >> now >> all we want is to havthem regulated. we need nks. goknows we need them. but they've goto do business in a decent fashion. d if they won't do it themselves, then the govnment has make them do it. >> we got to changthings. all these people, wee just regular pele. it's got to stop, that's why we're here. >> bust ! >>ig banks! >>ust up! big banks! >> moyers: their message forhe banks waclear and simple. >> clean up your act. enough is enough. we've caught onto ur game. know whatou're doing. we're not fools. people know it. clean upour act. and don't be acandal to us and the world. >> moyers:hey're up against the powerful lobby of the financial servicesndustry. it spentore than $220 million in lobbyinso far in 2009. most oit directed at stopping reforms in wasngton that would hold banks accountable a hopefully prevent a repeatf last yeas disaster. >> what we'rdoing here in chicago ought to be repliced across the country. weeed to get out by the millns to protest, to demand that this industry, in particular, the bankin industry, that is spending $0, $250 million lobbyg against bank refm, this is unacceptable. and think average americans need tunderstand that. >> i think it's ha for them to ignore our message athis int. because everyday, th crowd gets larger, and every dayhe american people get angrie and everyday we are shoutingo congress and to the esident. and every day thathat happens is a day tt the bankers cannot ignore. >> it's longer people like me feeling that it's my flt. you feel that, "oh, maybi went to school for thwrong type of stud" but, you know that the's some rce bigger than you out ther that been sopping up your money and not ging you an opportunity to te advantage of the americanream. >> we are fiting against big money inrests. we don't have the billions o dollars. but weave legs, we still have voices, and we're ing to continue to march and 're ing to continue to speak out and toend a message, quite frankly, to democrats in washington that, oe again, the novemberlection was a referendum on the d practices that have beenepudiated, that have been discdited. it's time for a new chter in american politics. it's up to tm to make a decision. are they gng to listen to the people on the ground here,r are they goingo listen to the nkers? that's the question day. anwe can say that even in chicago, oba's hometown, that many peoe are beginning to question hisommitment to serious, sweepg reforms. >> moyers: so, as weeard here timend again, they still cling to the aacity of hope. >> when enough people get acve, things will happen. i think obama wi act if people will ph him. but we'vgot to push him. he said that himse, he said, "you push us." and i think we're readto do that. >> the one thing we haveour own politicacurrency, is people. and ople are ready to hit the streets. today is a beginni of a much larger set omobilizations that are gointo take place all acrosshe country. we're just getng started. >> moyers: witme now is george gale, one the community organize you just saw in our port from chicago. 's executive director of national people's acon, a group dedicated torganizing for social justice. also with us is heathebooth, who's been a political aivist and orgazer for 40 years, ever since she joined theivil rights movent in the '60s. she's currently rector of americans r financial reform and president of t midwest acemy, a training program for leaders and organize. welcome to you both. >> oh, wderful to be here. >> thank you. >> moyers: george, y say at the end of that report, "wre not going awaywe're just arting." who's we? >> who is we? "we" is everay people from ross the country. we saw sething really interestinhappen over the course of the summer we were havingeetings with the federal reserve. and whattarted out as people coming out around predaty nding and foreclosures start evolve. and sudden retirees were coming out. saying, "how come my pensis been depleted 30%?" peopleho'd lost their jobs were coming out. people who werworried about ste budget cuts were coming out these meetings. and i think more and more pele are making connection around their own econic insecurity to what's hpening with the banks and on wall street. so, suddly we've got a growing movement of peopleho want to geout on the streets, put pressure on the banks. they recnize it's a david and goliath fight. d it's only through their action that 're going to make things happen. i think people d't believe right now that tir members of congre are going to lead the way. they're quesoning whether obamwill lead the way. and it's becoming re clear that they' got to lead the y. >> moyers: heatheryou're based in wasngton. george is in chicago. whare americans for financial reform? >> well, it's the ght of main street against walstreet. and it'snified both from the grassroots working closelyith georgend other grassroots ganizations. and also fol in d.c. so, we've got trade ions, vil rights organizations, religious organizations, invests. and we badly would like to see the values of decency, democracy, aountability, transparency, and fairness i the financial system. that system shou work for us, for the amican public >>oyers: those people we saw in chicago, wh did you sense they were feing when they were there? >> a number of pces have really been ravaged by foreclosures. so, we do have commuties that st have intense foreclosure coentration. the forecloses keep rising. and they see ban doing less. and th you've got more people in desrate financial situations, whicturns people toayday lenders. which senar durbin called it-- the event in chicago the bottom feeders of anndustry that i would say is like cha fu of bottom feeders. >> moyers: pday lenders are? >> payday lenderare these little shops, these litt storefronts that make 400% terest loans to people. e average $300 payday loan ends up costing the borrow 00. so, 's a classic, you know, leing scam that actually stripsealth from people and from communities. so, actually more anmore people a having to go to payd lenders, because they want to keep t lights on, get their groceries pa. they want to save theihousing. , people are seeing more and more abu, more and more scams at the local level. and i think people a angry for a few reasons. one, the relationship with their nk is not a good relationship. weere having a conversation witheople across the country the other day. and they were like, "wt if we had bas that actually helped people build wealth?" like thawas a radical idea. versus banks that e stripping wealth from peop. you know, high interest tes and overdraffees. >> moyers: so, you areeally up against so very powerful interestn washington, heather. i mean, the financial sect spent $110 million lobbyin the health care sector $3 million. the energyector $100 million. alin the second quarter of this yr. what mes you think you stand a chance up against ose kind of forces >> wl, first of all as george rightly id, it's though. it's a david and golth fight. should remember that sometimes david wins. especially when it'sot... >> moys: a clean shot right beeen the eyes? >> andt's not just david, it's jane andue and all sorts of lks getting together, becaus we really do have a people power, especially in t finaial industry. there s really never been an organized, popul protest. this has been a secretemple, as bl greider referred to it. whe... >> moyers: "washinon post" report who's covered the fed for a long time,ight? absolutely. and as he and othersave said, this was kepsecret in the back rooms. ght now we still don't know what actually going on. we don't know what happened th that money. >> moyers: youean the tarp money? the bailout money? we d't... >> absoluty. >>oyers: all of it hasn't been accounted for, right? >> not at all. in ft, we need to audit the federal reserve. what did they with the money? at happened to this money? and what's happened now is tt people are jning together and are saying let's take that curtain away. let's open it to the sunlight. and people are startinto organize. we saw it clearly chicago. we see it in the last few eks mae 150 demonstrations around the countr >> likon black friday, a bunch of clergwent to take over and shutown a payday lending office in oomington, illinois, led by... >> moyers: black friday ing? >> being the dayfter thanksgiving when everybody se is outpending money. thesfolks decided it was time to go shut down a payday lder. and say, "hey, until we ve a coumer financial protection agency, wee going to protect ourselves. we're going to be thfirst line of defse in our community." on ts last saturday in iowa, 60 people took over payday lendinbranch there and said, "enough is enough." so, a lot of the aion, and i thinthe kind of action that leads to trumovement building, and we really need a pular movement if we're going to w this kind of fight. we canlay in the game of inches in d.c.but if we really want to move this in terms of feet and yards, it's going to takeart popular unrest that the dia cannot deny happening across t country. and it's staing to happen all over the place. i think as progresve organizers, thiss our chance bring more people into our tent, to hp develop a more clear analysis around at's happing with big time capital and ungulated corporations. so, i think have a job to bring as many ople into the tent. ere are a lot of republicans that came outo chicago, particularly family farmerwho stl, regardless of like politicaaffiliation, said, "unregulated capal is not good fome." in part, i think they come togetherhen you combine... you say noo bailouts, yes to jobs. that people are hurting. we're at 10% unemployment. anactually real unemployment's probably 15% oeven more. the foreclosures are incasing now driv by that unemployment, while the bankare making these billion dollaronuses. so pple are furious. >> moyers: how do u get the members of congress to fl what we sensed in the streets tt they are ltening to these ople? well, we know that the amou of moneyn politics often domina the political dialogue. and so, we're tryingo bring a people power, asell as the inside relationsps. it's an outside/side relationship. >> what we're trying to is really organizaround a set of eas. and wh we think a real successfulovement would be moreround an allegiance to ideas over party. and some of that'll contn prests. but it's really about a visi of what we wanto create, around aore fair and just economy. so, right now, think a lot of e action is around banking reform. but i think we're buildinghe foundation for a big movent around an economy that serveus al heather knows, there was a period in the in theield of community organing, where the different networks didn't alys work that well together. and the ople that we served were not served well by at lack of collaboration. but there's a new genetion of leadersh that's trying to break through the old barriers and say, "he what if we came gether? whatf we started to aggregate all the power thate're doing around the coury into somethinmuch bigger?" so, m more... we're definitely on t ropes right now in financial form. it's a tough fight i'm re optimistic than ever that we're in a position to rn the de. >> change isard. partlyecause money largely dominates politics, media, a so many factorof our life. these opsition forces, the insurance companies,he big financial interests, theig energy companies. they're stilaround. but this ia new moment. actually believe that it is historic opening. not with a grantee of change, but with a promi that there's opening for change if we seize . partly because theres a crisis. and people are saying, "you' goto do something about it." partly because t old ideas don't work of sayi just deregulation. free market wiout really concerabout real people. or the greed igood spirit. it's pary because there is a neleadership that is turning the country. we are now movinin a new direction with big ideasround important agendas. on health ca, on climate, on jobs, anon financial reform. >> mers: but here in new york this weeat the big annual meetg of the supporters of "the nation gazine," one of the progressive mazines in the country, you couldeally feel the division bween people who say we've t to stay with obama, bause he is the agent of change. and people w are saying, "wait a minute, he'sade his peace withhe wall street interests. he toohis first big appointments tthe financial system from the very peoe who brought this about." how far do youo in criticizing obama or praisg obama, when he seems to bcutting the corners a lot of the agenda he was elected to achieve? >> you know,hese kinds of disions are present in all movements. they're present the tea baggers. and they're prent in movements for progresse change. you know, backn the 1960s, even forhe big march on shington with dr. king that ma people remember, before that mch, there was a whole debate. should they low john lewis-- whwas seen as a dangerous radical, part of the stude nonviolent cooinating commite-- should they let john lewis, who's now a congressma.. >> moyers: right. >>..should they let him speak at that marcon washington? because he was going to critize a young and dynamic and arismatic and hopeful young prident, at that point, president kennedy? and in fac they decided he should speak. and he was also rt of that dialue, because he was represenng the voice of people in s.n.c.c., out in e people in misssippi, in alabama, and otheplaces around the country. and so, that difference of opinion part of the healthy, internal creative conflict >> moyer so, how dyou grade obama rit now on banking refo? "a", "b," "c," "d," or a unk? >> he certainly moving us in a positive broad directionor ange of for regulation, for consumer protection agency, r trying to address thisasino economy and gederivatives regulated d controlled. now, there are oer areas in which we tnk we have to go much further. there are questions abouthe federal reserve. we think it does need be democratized and really shod function for the people and notust for the largest banks, who larly control it >> moyers: so, "a," "b," "" "d or "f"? >> i think t grade depends in large part on what we do. u know, obama himself said that he doest... he's not asking us to belve in him. he's askg us to believe in ourselves and our abily to organize and mobize. we have to be therand engage the grading is not donyet. >> moyers: do you think he sll remembers whene was a community ganizer in your city of chicago? >> i don't know. it doe't feel like it right now. i would give him a "c" o leaderip in terms of fighting for the issue. i dot feel like he's been out there at the levele could be, really championing serious reform. it's interesting, in illois, hectually worked with ganizations like ours to pas an anti-predory lending bill the state. it was one of the first in t country. t he needs to be out there using his bullpulpit and using his power to gethe message out there. and i el like lately a lot of members of t democratic party have been running like a wasd up prize figer and not getting outhere and really leading for us. and think that's why more and more americans like the lks you saw in the cp said, "we're going to deputize oursves. we're tired of waiting. we're going to take thlead." and i think about pele like brenda lablanc who wasn that video, from des moines, wa. 81, retired. she says, "i'm going to rm the first line of defensagainst predatory lenders. against payday lding. agait wells fargo in my community." or theeverend charlotte dotts, who's leadg the fight in central illiis. or mit-rivers singleton in wichita, kans. thesare unpaid people that say, "we're tid of waiting for leadersh. we're the leaders we'vbeen looking for. and we're going to lead th way." >> moyers: how do you crea a moment out of them when they're many of them a just struggling to stayfloat personally? >> yeah, there's a new lev of llaboration between organizi networks that gives me a t of hope. so, right no you take our organization, national peopls action, or anoth national organizing network. maybe cover 15-20 states. and we're strongn some and not strong in the other. but if you put tt all together, you have a fedation of people moving arod a set of ideas around shared set of principles and a shad strategy and u could really start to turn t tide. i do think on this fightwe don't win unless we figureut how to toxifthe banking money in politics. >> moyers: do what? >> toxify that money. it's amazingo me that the same banks that created the reclosure crisis, sent the econy into the tail spin, eded and billions and billio of taxpayer bailts, are still able to hand o millions in campaign contributions you'd think there uld be a political price pay for taking that money. but members of coness, like melissa bean, i nder how she eeps well at night. well, i figured she mu sleep on a bed of campaign contritions. >> moyers:he is? >> she's a democrat om illinois, who's been selli us out leftnd right. and until as the public say, "you're going to pay aolitical price for king banking money from the same banks th created the crisisnd we bailed out." i think it'soing to be a real uphill battle. in our view, it's at this sort of two part approh. one part is rking, this woing the system and moving for legislation that is mong for concrete change. and thisegislation is moving through ngress right now. and that legislationouldn't have been the if there wasn't the leadership that prident obama's providing. but it also won't get thugh unss there's a grassroots suort that george and other organizaons are doing around the country. and fosing on the banks and thlargest banks and the role they're playing. >> moyers: the seniosenator for george's state of linois, di durbin, he said this summer, u know, the banks own the place, speakinof the senate, the house, and washinon. is that true in om your experien? >> it is certainlyhe domination of political ney is affectinthe politics. and he saithat precisely at the point en there was about to be a renegoation of loans with a prosion in the bankptcy bill. and when that provisn went down, he was so frustrated, because re people were facing foreclosures, and thbanks basically stood inhe way of the interes of the american public. so, on oneide you've got organized money and on thether side, you've got orgized people. >> moyers: but therganized mone it'll be there next year whenhese people that came to chico have to go home and try to make a living and takcare of their filies. it's an uneven plang field, isn't ? >> it is. and i think until we cnge it, we're going have, you know, lots of ugh fights and be in an uphill battle. this case, i do think we ha the opportunitto toxify that moneand make it too tainted to touch. i feel like e democrats and republicans fight on many thgs. but whent seems to campaign contributions, they'reot that different. th all like that money. there are a few exceptio. and they're ppy to take it. until they stop taking i we're going to be in o hell of a fight. >> we want to ow that it's politicallsmart, as well as in the interests of the people,o stand for main street. and not to just keeptanding up for ll street. >> moyers:o, what's next for both of you? >> well, the fight connues. senator chris dodds actually leadina fight for real reform, for democratizinthe federal reserve, for ensurg that derivatis, this casino economy is more related. that we can move f an end to the kind of foreclosurcrisis we've got. and that we ve for our consumerinancial protection agency and then wre talking about activities, well, actually, december 1h when the bonuses come out, they'll be bon demonsations around the country. and then that will carry on through january anfebruary. and we thi there's a gathering storm. >> this isn incredible opportunity turn a tragedy into sething good. so, if wcan get it together, and i reallyhink this not abt the congress. this is not about the present. this is about the peop watcng this show and other americans ying, "enough is enough. d i'm going to move from my seat out io the streets, from ngers on a keyboard, to boot on the ground,nd get out there." whether that meansalling the members of congress, whethert mes organizing a little protest inront of a bank, whether it means makina youtube video and cuttg up yourredit cards and posting it and sending it out to yo fries. if people get engage we can win this fight. anthat's happening. therare actions planned all across the country i25 states over throughhe end of the ye. and then anext year comes arou, you'll start to see more ents like the showdown in chicago. >>oyers: how can people watcng find out how to be in toh with you? what how can they kn what you're doi? >> sure, they should go the website,howdowninamerica.org, which will give them ide around what's happening arnd the untry. and ways that theyan plug in and be part of this movement. >> moyer and heather? >> ofinancialsecurity.org is our website. and also they can link up th variouorganizations that really are in everstate, whether it national people's action or u.s.ction or center r community change. whether it's theirrade union, whether it's theireligious institution. there are ways thawe can combe altogether. the civil rightsrganizations. and be much stroer together in th gathering storm. >> moyers: heather bth and george goehl, thank you ve much for beingn the journal. >> thank y. >>goldman sus! >> moyers: there's a long tradition in ameri of people power, and no e has done more to document it than th storian, howard zinn. listen to this paragraph fro himost famous book. "if democracy we to be given any meaning, if were to go beyond theimits of capitalism and nationalis this would not come, if history were anguide, from the top. it would come through tizen's movement educating, ganizing, agitating, strikin boycotting, demonstrating, threateninthose in power with disruption of the ability they needed." this sonf a working-class faly got a job in the brooklyn shipyards and then flew as bombardier during rld war ii. he went to n.y.u. on the g.i bill, taught historyt spellman college in atlanta, whe he was first active in the civil rits movement, and then became a professor of political scien at boston univerty. ere, he and his students sought a more downo-earth way of looking at american hisry. and wheno book could provide it, zinn decid to write one. since his puication in 1980, "a people's history of the united states" hasold more than two million cies. this sday night, the history channel wi premiere a 90- mite special, "the people spea, based on howard zinn's book. it was produced byinn along with matt damon, josh olin, ris moore and anthony arnove >> let tm say what they will. moyers: actors and musician bring to life voicesf protests from america's pas.. >> all men are created equal. >> moyers:..performing words and music that have given usas ward zinn says, "whatever liberty or docracy we have." welcome to theournal. >> o thank you, bill. moyers: so, history and hollywood. is ts the beginning of a new career for you? i hope not. no, but i am happy it is a w of reaing a larger audience with the ideas tt were in the book. well, the ideathat you just spoke about. the idea of pele involved in history, pple actively making history,eople agitating and demonsating, and pushing the leaders of the country io changen a way that leaders themselv are not likely to initiate >> moys: what do you think these charters from the past that wwill see on the screen, what do they have to say to today? >>ell, i think what they have say to us today is think fo yourlf. don't believe what the pple up there tell you. live your n life. think your own ideas. andon't depend on saviors. don't depend on the founding father on andrew jackson, on theodore roosevelt, lyndon hnson, on obama. don't dend on our leaders to do what needto be done. becae whenever the government has done anything bring about changeit's done so only because it's been pushed and prodded social movements, by ordina people organizing, by, you know, lincoln pushed by e anti-slavery movemt. you know, johnson and kenned pued by the southern black movement. and maybe, hopeful, obama today, maybe he wille pushed by people today who ha such high hopes ihim, and who want to see him fulll those hopes. you know, traditnal history creates passivity because it gives you the people at e top and it makes y think that all u have to do is go to the polls every four years a elect mebody who's going to do the tricfor you. and no. we want people tunderstand at that's not going to happe people have to do ithemselves. and so that's what we ho these readings wl inspire. >> moyers: one of my forite sequences is in here, when we meet genora dollinger. tell me about her. >> she was aoman who got involv in sit-down strikes of the 1930s. those very dramatic moments en workers occupied theactories general motors and wouldn't ave, and therefore left the rporations helpless. but this was a time wh strikes all over the count galvanized people and pushed the nedeal into the reforms that we finly got from the new deal. and genora dollier represents the women who are very often overlooked in these strules, women so instrumental in supporng the workers, eir men, their sweethearts. and nora dollinger just inspires people with her wor. >> moyers: sheas only 23 when e organized. >> amazing. yes. >> wkers overturned police cars to ke barricades. they ran to pick up the re bombs rown at them and hurl em back at the police. the men wanted tme to get out of the way you know the old "prect the women and chdren" business. i ld them, "get away from me." the lights went on in my hd. i thought, iave never used a loud speaker to dress a large crowd of people, b i've got to tell them therare women down here. called to them, "cowards! coward shooting into thbellies of unarmed men and firi at the motherof children." and th everything became quiet. i thought, "the men can break is up." so i appealed to the women i the crowd, "brk through those police lines and come downere and stand beside youhusbands and yourrothers and your uncles and your sweetheas." i could barely see one woman struling to come forward. a cop d grabbed her by the ck of her coat. she just puld out of that coat and she started walkg down to the ttle zone. as sn as that happened there re other women and men who followed. that washe end of the battle. when those spectats came into the center and theolice retreated, a big roar of victy. >> moyer that's marisa tomei as gora dollinger. what do you ink when you hear those words? >> first, i mustay this, bill. when my dahter saw this she heard marisaomei shout to the police"cowards, cowards." my dauter said a chill, a ill went through her. she was so moved. and so, when i see thi and i've seen thiso many times, and each time i am mov because whatt tells me is that just ornary people, you know, people whore not famous, if they get togher, if they persist, if they defy e authorities, thecan defeat the laest corporation in the world. >> moyers: wn i was last at the nation portrait gallery in london, i s struck all over again by how t portraits there we all of wealthy people who could afford to hiren artist. it's like when y go to egypt, and you see thpyramids and the tombs, you reali that it was only the wealt people who could afford to nsider their legacynd have the leisure time to do what they wa to. we know almost nothingbout the ordinary peoplof egypt, right? >> ectly. i remeer when i was going to, you kn, high school and lening, it was such a thrilling story read about the transcontineal railroad. you kn, and the meeting of the two union pacifi.. you know, the golden spi and all of at. but i wa't told that this raroad was built by chinese and irish workers who woed by the thousas, long hours, many them died in sickness, and erwork, and so on. i wasn't tolabout these workg people. and so, that's what we'rtrying to do in thidocumentary. that'shat i tried to do in the "pple's history of the united states." to bring back into the fefront the people who created wt was called the economical racle of the united state >> moyers: onef your producers of this films matt damon. and i understand that wh matt damon was in the fth grade, he took a cy of this book into hiteacher on columbus day and said"what is this? we're he to celebrate this great event, but twoears after columbus discovered amera, 100,000 dians were dead according to howard zinn. he said,hat's going on?" is that a true story? >> it's true t all stories are true. but this... it's true. matt damon, when he was te yearold, was given a copy of my book by hisother. th were next-door neighbors of ours. >> moyers:h. i didn't know that. whe? >>n the boston area, in newton. d matt would say that he and his other kyle would... they'd wakep sometime in the middle of the nightnd see the light on in my study, where was writing this book. so, th were in on it from the beginning. so, yeah, matt kw the book early. >> moyers: evetoday, people are inspired by celeities, tv rformers, athletes, famous politician are ere people doing today what genora doinger and others did in the past? >> i think therere people like thatoday. buvery often, they're ignored in t media. yoknow, or they appear for a day, you kw, on the pages of the times orhe post, and then they disappear. but, well, y know, there are those peop recently who sat in chicagin this plant that was ing to be closed by the bank of ameca, and these people sat in and refused to lee. i mean, that was a modn-day incarnation of wt the sit-down strike is in the930s. but there are peop... there are people todayho are fighting evictio, fighting foreosures. and, you kw, very often, there's a supeicial understanding of a passive citizey today, which is not true. there are people all ovethe country who are really consence-stricken about what's going on. but e media are not covering th very well. >> moyers: so, help get a handle on the wo and the tradition of populism. what was popism in essence? >> well, the wd populism came into being in the late 1800s 1880, 1890, when great corporationsominated the country,he railroads, and the banks, andhese farmers were victims of them. and the farmers got together and they organized nor and south, and they rmed the polist movement. it was a great peoe's vement. and they st orators around the country,nd they published thousands pamphlets. and it was, i would y, a high moment for american democry. moyers: well, if populism i thrivingoday, it seems to be riving on the right. i me, sarah palin, for example. d the tea parties. some... one consvative writer recently in "the weekly standard" even said at sarah lin could be the william jennings bryan of this n conservave era because she is giving voice to millionsf peopleho feel angry at what the government is dog, who feel that theye being cheated out of a prosperous y of life by forces beyond their conol. what do you thk about that idea? >>ell, i guess william nnings bryan would turn over in his grave if he hea. willm jennings bryan was antiwar, and s is not antiwar. she is very litaristic and so on. but it's truthat she represents a certainngry part of the population. and i ink it's true that when people are..feel beleaguered and people feel thathey are ing overlooked, they will tu to whoever sms to represent them. some of them will turno her. some of them will rn to the right-wingers, and you mht say that's how fcism develops in countries, becau they play on the anger and the frusation of people. t on the other hand, that anger, that frtration can also lead to people's mements that are progressive. you can go the wayraditionally of the populists, of the lab movement of the '30s, of t civil rights movement, of e women's movement to brinabout change in is country. >> moyer you mentioned the women's moveme, and there's another rerkable moment in your film of sus b. anthony, en she's on trial for trying to vote when s and other women didn't have the ght. >> the sentence of the courts that you pay a fine of100 and e costs of the prosecution. >> may it please your nor, i will never pay a dollar of yr unjust penalty. all the stock trade i possess is debt of $10,000, incurred by publishing my paperthe revolution", the sole objectf which was to educatell women to do precisely as i have do, rebel against your man-made, unjust, unconstitutional fms law, which tax, fine, imprison andang women, while denying them the right of representation in e government. and i will work on wh might and main to y every dollar of that honest de, but not a penny shall go to th unjust claim. and i shall earnestly and persisntly continue to urge all women to the praical recoition of the old revolutionary maxim, "sistance to tyranny is obediencto god." >>hristina kirk, a wonderful actrs, and she brings susan b. anthony alive. and i think what that says t people today is you must sti up for youprinciples, even if it means baking the law. civil disobedience, it's wt thoreau urged. it's what main luther king, jr. urged. it what was done during the cil rights movement and the vietnam war. if you think you're ght, then susan b. anthony thoughtt was rit for her to try to register to vot d yeah, people should defy t rules if they thk they're doing the right thing. >> moyer you have said elsewherthat if president obama we listening to martin luer king, jr. he'd be making someifferent decisions. what do you mean by th? >> well,irst of all, he'd be taki our troops out of iraq and afghanista and he'd be saying we are no longer gog to be a war-making countr we're not going to be a miliry country. we're going toake our immense resources,ur wealth, we're going use it for the benefit of people. remember, martin lher king started a poor people's caaign just before heas assassinated. and if obama paid tention to the working people of this couny, then he would be doing much, much more than he is dng now. >> moyer i remember... all of us remembe who were around then, that 1967 speech that martin luther king gavhere in new yo at the riverside church, a yearefore his assassation. and he said, "true compaion is more than flinging aoin to a beggar. it comes to see at an edifice, structure, which produces beggars, needs restructung." i mean, that's pretty fundamenta right? changehe system. >> king haa much more fundamenl critique of our economic system. and certainly more fdamental an obama has because a fundamental crique of our economic system wod not simply give hdreds of billions of dollarto the bankers and so on, and ve a little bit to the people below. a fundamental chan in our system would rlly create a greater equalization of weth, would i think give ufree dical care. nothe kind of half-baked health reforms thaare being nodebated in congress. >> moyers: this is one reaso you arseen as a thre to her people. people at the top, becse your message, like king'sessage, goes ta fundamental allocation ofower in america, right? >> yeah, thais very troublesome for peoplet the to they're willg to let people think about ld reforms and litt changes, and incremental changes, but they don'want people to ink that we could acally transform this country into aeaceful country, that we no lonr have to be a super military power. they d't want to think that way because it's protable for certain interests in ts country to carryn war, to have military bas in 100 countries, to have a $600 billion milary budget. that makes a l of money for certain people. but it leaves the re of the country hind. >> moyers: take a lo at this. >> if you we a bum without a blanket; iyou had left your wife and ks when you went west foa job, and had never located them since; ifour job had never kept you long engh in a place to quafy you to vote; if you slept in a lousy, sour bunkhouse, and ate food justs rotten as they could givyou and t by with it; if deputy sheriffshot your cooking cans full of holeand spilled your grub on the ground; your wages were loweredn you when the sses thought they had you down; ifvery person who represented law and orr and the nation beat you , railroadedou to jail, and the good christian people chred d told them to go to it, how in the hell do you expect a n be patriotic? this war is a businessan's war and don't see why we should go out and get shot in oer to sa the lovely state of affairs which we now enjoy. >> viggo morteen. and he's readinghe words of a labor person, w.w. man. >> moyers:.w.w., international workers of the world? >> that's ght. and they refused to go along with world war i, and he's explaining why they won't. d he... basically, he's spking to poor people in all wars. he's sayg, "it's a businessman'war." and war is a busessman's war. it always is. and so, the people, e ordinary guysere like-- and viggo mortsen portrays here-- ordinary guys haveothing to ga from this war. >> moyers: s how do you explain the sence of protest in the streets today? the passivity in resnse to the fact tt we will... we have now doubled the number of troo in afghanistan that george w. bushad. how do explain t apathy? >> let put it this way. i don't think people a apathetic abt it. i believe st people in this untry do not want us to be i afghanistan. but they're not doing anhing out it, you're right. we'rnot seeing protests in the street and i think one of tse reasons is that the media-- thmajor media, televisn, and newspapers--hey have not pled their role in educating the puic about what is going on. >> moyers: tre was a poll late this wk showing that a bare marity of americans do support sendg more troops to afghanistan. how do you read that? you have to remember this.. it is not easy for pple to oppose sendi troops to afghanistan, especially once they have been sent d once the decision haseen made. it's not easy for peop to oppose what the prident is saying, and what the mediare saying, wh both major parties are working for. and , the very fact that even close to a majority of t pele are opposed to sending trps to afghanistan tells me that manmore people are opposed. so i have a fundamental faitin the basic decency, and en, yes, the wisdom of peopl once ey make their way through th deceptions that arthrown at em. and wee seen this historically. people learn. >> moyers: was struck in your special by what thlabor leer, cesar chavez, had to say about organizingis fellow farm works. >> i'm not very different om anyone else who has ev tried to accomplish sothing with his life. my motivation mes from watching what my motheand faer went through when i was growing up; from whawe experienceas migrant farm workers in cifornia. it grew fr anger and rage, emotns i felt 40 years ago when people of my lor were denied the right to e a movie or eat at a staurant in many partof california. it grefrom the frustration and huliation i felt as a boy who couldn't understand how the grers could abuse and exploit farm workers when there re so many ous and so few of them. i began to realizehat other minority people had discered: that the only answ, the only hope, was in organizing. like the other immigra groups, the day will come whene win the economic and political rewards which are in keeng with our numbers in ciety. the day wi come when the politicians do the rht thing by our people out of pitical necessity and not out of chaty or ideism. that dayay not come this year. that day may not ce during this decade. but it will come. >> moyers:t will come. martÃn espada as cesar chavez. >> yeah, a gat poet. >> moyers: do you believe th it will me? >> io. i n't give you a date. but i have condence in the future. you ow why? fa workers were at one point in as helpless a positioas the labor moment is today. but as cesar chavesaid, we leard that you have to organize. anit takes time, it takes patience, it takes persistce. i mean, think of howong black peoplen the south waited... >> mers: 300 years. >> yeah. >> mers: a long... and then 100 years after the cil war, which was foht for freedom. >> yeah. ll, i don't think we'll have to wait 100 years. >> moyers: so, populm isn't rely... and people's power, isn't really a lefor right issue, is it? it's more us versus them, boom versus top? >> it's democracy. you know, demoacy doesn't come from the top. it comes from the ttom. democracy is n what governments do. it what people do. too often, we go to junior hh school and they sort oteach us democracy is three bnches of government. you know, it's not the three branch of government. >> moyers: i'd like to endith a woman who showeds the power of aingle voice, speaking for democracy. born into slavery, lgely uneducated, she spoke out fo the rights of all pele who didn have any. i mean, she was annforgettable truth tell, you know. and here is kerry waington as sojoner truth. >> that man over thereays that women need to beelped into carriages,nd lifted over ditches, ando have the best place evywhere. nobody ever hes me into carriages, or over mud-pudes, or gives me any best place and ait i a woman? look at me. i have ploughed anplanted, and gathered into rns, and no man could head me! and ain't i a woman? i could work amuch and eat as much as any man-- when iould get it-- and i could bear e lash as well. and ain't i a man? i have borne 1children, and seen most so off into slavery, and when i cried out wita moer's grief, none but jesus heard me. and ain't i a woma that man ithe back there, he says women can't he as much righ as men, 'cause christ sn't a woman! well, where did yo christ come from? whe did your christ come from? he came from god and a wom! madidn't have nothing to do with it. cheers and applause if the fir woman god ever made was stng enough to turn the wod upside down all alone, well these women here togeer ght to be able to turn it back, and get it right sidup again! and they asking too it, the men better lethem. >> moyers: why didou include that o? >> well,e included that one because it's so emwering. and, i mean, because here is this woman who was a sve and, you kn, oppressed on all side and she's defiant. and so, shrepresents the voice of people whve been overlooked. and she represents a voice wch is rebellis and, yeah, troublese to the powers that be. >> moyers: well, i will be wahing the history channel sunday eveng with your book in lap. howard zinn, "a people'sistory of the united states". thank you for being with m >> thankou, bill. >> moyers: tt's it forhe journal. go to our website pbs.org and click on "bi moyers journal." you will find out mo about storian howard zinn and read selection of his wtings. there's al a web exclusive esy on land mines and barack obams nobel prize. that's all at pbs.org. i'm bill moyers. i'll seeou next time. captioning sponsored by public affairs tevision captioned by dia access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org