we're hearing 50% of the argument on a sit-down with mueller. mueller's side doesn't talk and mueller's side doesn't leak. >> right. lawyers are generally not out debate their client's legal strategy in public which leads one to believe this is not so much a legal strategy as a pr strategy. our reporting has told us that the president's lawyers are not eager for him to testify. but there's also concern from some in the white house that if he appears unwilling to speak to mueller, that could look like he has something to hide. that might not -- that could be politically lethal, in a way. so part of the strategy here is to keep this back and forth going, to make it look like there is a negotiation. whether there is one or not. and most importantly, that the president is willing to sit down for this interview, particularly ahead of the midterms. >> mimi, one of the guests last night hadn't thought of the president in these terms. the president got a paycheck from this company and this building for 14 years.