whether trump knew beforehand, there are intimations that trump new beforehand about the trump tower meeting. that's vital because that could be another kind of criminal conspiracy and we're getting very close to the issue of treason there. if you're cooperating with a foreign government to undermine our elections, this is very serious stuff. >> which is why, barbara, a lot of people think the russia stuff is still going to be more interesting than payoffs to the two women. the issue here, though, is that he is sending, the president is sending a message to manafort. manafort rolled the dice on the first trial. the second trial a lot of experts say doesn't stand the likelihood for going as well for paul manafort but the president does seem to be sending a message, hold the line and don't give up anything. which leads people to believe there's something to give up. >> i think we're at a critical moment in the manafort case. i can understand he might have thought let's roll the dice in the first trial and see what happens because i get a second bite at the apple.