billion to keep people incarcerated that are not a threat to public safety. we need those dollars in other parts of our government. it's not just kind of moral evolution here. there's also a cost dynamic. i think this can become an issue that is less politicized than a lot of the issues that we've been dealing with here recently at the policy and certainly the national policy level. >> bryan, when you look at our overall relationship to other industrialized countries, other well-off countries around the world and see how disproportionately we lock up our own population, do you think there need to be a root and branch fundamental change in the way we approach crime and punishment or do you think we could sort of normalize our level of imprisonment in this country compared to the rest of the world through step-by-step changes like this? i despair of the prospect of us rethinking it in a big way, but i do feel like it is possible to make significant changes step by step like this one today. >> well, i think actually in some ways both things are really needed.