Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning 20240702

funds on personal items like sephora cosmetics, trips to atlantic city, and even only fans. turns out, they don't sell fans at all. the name of the site is very misleading. >> republican congressman george santos providing an awful lot of material for the late night shows. we'll go through a very damning ethics report. that was the tip of the iceberg there from jimmy kimmel, and show you the response from the new york lawmaker who says he's sticking around. we'll see if he can. talk about that in a minute. also ahead, we'll have the latest from the middle east. israel says it has more evidence hamas is operating out of a hospital in gaza. it comes as the idf recovered the body of a hostage near that facility. and we will recap another diplomatic day on the west coast for president biden, where he met with the leaders of south korea and japan. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, november 17th. with us this morning, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, "jonathan lemire. bbc news' katty kay. former chairman of the national republican committee, michael steele. assistant managing editor and washington bureau chief for "the new york times," elisabeth bumiller. let's dive right in this morning. israel troops continue to search gaza's main hospital for more evidence hamas is operating out of the building. yesterday, israeli defense forces released this video of what they say is an operational tunnel shaft. they also say they have found hamas weapons there. nbc news cannot independently verify those claims, but we have been able to verify the location shown in the video is just outside of the hospital building. israel says there have been no casualties since its raid began on wednesday. the hospital had to shut down over the weekend due to a lack of fuel and supplies. still, hundreds of patients are inside and need medical care. the fuel shortage also has caused internet and phone services to collapse across the gaza strip. the breakdown of communications network, crucial for coordinating and deliveries, will keep the united nations from getting aid into that territory today. joe, the idf says, the israel government now, evidence that hamas was working out of that hospital. obviously, it'd be great if hamas would use some of its fuel, it has big reserves of it, to keep that hospital running. >> no doubt about it. front page of "the new york times" talking about israel coming through the gaza hospital for evidence of hamas using that hospital. what did "the times" find? >> our international editor and our jerusalem bureau chief went on a tour of the hospital with idf forces, with them the whole time. they said they saw a shaft, a dark shaft that seemed to be leading underground, but you couldn't -- the israeli forces didn't want to go into it for fear of the booby traps. phil and patrick reported that you couldn't -- it seemed to go underground, but they couldn't go into it. they couldn't completely, you know, verify the claims that these are tunnels. we also know from our sources, from the administration officials, from intelligence gathering, that they say, yes, there are tunnels underneath that hospital. the administration says these are our own intelligence sources, not is israelis'. >> katty, this is where the battle goes now. you'll have israeli troops eventually having to lower themselves into shafts, trying to figure out how to work through the tunnel networks. not only to seek out hamas but, obviously, to look for the hostages. >> yeah. i mean, there are people in this world whose sad job it is to study warfare in tunnels specifically. there are academics who study this. i've spoken to a couple of them, but it is incredibly difficult, what the israelis are thinking of doing. partly because of what elizabeth said, these are booby trapped. some of the hostages may be in there, as well, so there is a risk to hostages potentially. this is not an easy feat. i think we've had the perception the israeli military and the israeli intelligence services were almost invincible the last few years. they had this reputation for being so powerful and so all-knowing. the events of october the 7th revealed, certainly, the intelligence was not invincible, and now the israeli military is going to be tested in a way that is very difficult for any military. this puts person against person. israeli military forces have not been training very extensively over the last few years in urban combat. they haven't been doing simulations of tunnel raids in big numbers for a long time. it's very difficult. this is not easy. >> isn't it extraordinary? this is, i mean, this is what the united states learned how to do over 20 years leading up to mosul. >> mm-hmm. >> we had to guide warfare, you know, street by street, building by building, room by room. it is extremely difficult. as katty said, here, you have the israelis who used to know how to do this. let's just say it, netanyahu was so busy taking the fight to the supreme court and the rule of law that they stopped focusing on their main enemy. they stopped focusing in every way. they stopped focusing on the enemy in gaza and, instead, was obsessing over allowing extremists to settle in the west bank. in every single way, they have left the israeli people vulnerable. it's not like we started hearing this on october 8th. i started hearing from people in israel throughout the year, that the secular israelis who had been the backbone of defending the nation were being pushed out. it was religious extremists who didn't give a damn about things like the military or, you know, mosul. >> i think, joe, the points that both you and katty raise speak to the idea that you have a situation where the politics overwhelms the process and the information. that becomes the way in which things are dictated and outcomes are determined. so you lose sight of the mission because you're concerned about the politics. you just referenced, you know, what netanyahu is going through domestically. meanwhile, you have a policy in which he does not want to engage on the two-state solution. he takes that off the table. so there is no intelligence gathering with respect to, okay, so what happens? what's going to happen? when you take that off the table and you have this concentration of -- >> with all due respect, i mean, let's just say it, that's not his to take off the table. israel is there because of us. >> it's not -- >> he's the one who put israel in this place. >> i'm just saying. >> we're the ones that are going to keep israel fighting, going to continue to support them. we have every right to tell netanyahu and anybody else, that if you want our support, if you want our continued support, you're going to take care of the west bank. >> but -- >> biden -- >> we didn't. >> biden has started to say, he's told them to protect palestinians on the west bank. >> that's now, joe. i'm talking about before now. before we got to october 7th. >> oh, of course not. >> the israeli policy was not to engage on the two state. >> i know. i'm agreeing with you. i'm talking about now. >> but now, i don't know how much the israelis and netanyahu are actually listening to the biden administration. >> right. >> i mean, the administration was pushing very hard to delay the invasion, and they delayed somewhat, but the israelis are not taking all the advice the u.s. is giving, at all. now, the u.s. is stuck with what we're seeing as pulling back and saying, well, they have the right to defend themselves. they have a moral obligation to defend themselves, but they have got to watch out for civilian casualties. now, we have 11,000 palestinians dead in gaza, if we believe the health ministry. >> what's the -- whose numbers are that? >> those are the health ministry numbers that we don't know for sure. >> hamas numbers. >> yeah. >> even last night, bibi netanyahu on american television was pressed on whether he would still support a two-state solution, given everything that's happened. >> right. >> given what is going on right now in gaza. he would not. >> he wouldn't. >> just look at it. >> he's standing in the way of the only thing that could lead to some sort of silver lining out of this horror that's happening in gaza. >> can you imagine a worse face for israel right now than bibi netanyahu's? everybody that sees him on the screen, except those working in his cabinet, understand, willie, that every step he takes is a move to preserve himself politically. everyone knows he's the guy that let israel down. he's the guy that allowed october 7th to happen. he's the guy that, for years, was so focused on undermining the rule of law in israel that he actually compromised the forces there. who says that? who says that? not some guy in washington, d.c. that's what the israelis say. if the israelis say it, imagine how horrible it is across the rest of the world. the question is, at what point does he leave and allow israel to have a new start so everything they do is not looked at through a lens of suspicion. >> polling supports what you just said, which is that israelis are united, without question, because they came under attack on october 7th, but they're not united around bibi netanyahu. they're united around their nation. jonathan lemire, to the question of the president and what he can do here, he does have some levers to pull. he does have some weight to throw around here because of the united states support of israel. what is your sense right now of the balancing act he's been pulling for more than a month now, which is unequivocal public support and private pressure on prime minister netanyahu, on the way he's prosecuting the war and on the way he is behaving in the west bank? >> that was the white house plan from the beginning. president biden would hug netanyahu close, right at the start of this on his trip to israel, but also to create that space for him to chide and push, if needed. those pushes have picked up in pace. >> doesn't look like he is enjoying that hug. >> no, you can see his facial expression. >> he's like, seriously? do i have to do this? my god, okay. >> it is always carefully said that these two men have known each other for a long time. it's never been added that they've liked each other a long time. president biden hasn't been a fan of prime minister netanyahu for quite some decades. >> that was not -- that was not the hug, like, when -- if we can go back to that picture, that was neither the hug at the end of "when harry met sally" or "you've got mail." that ain't tom hanks and meg ryan. >> the best. >> "casa blanca" and "when hrry met sally." >> that ain't this. >> polarizing movie choice here. >> it is. >> as we go to the christmas season and we're talking about middle east peace, next, we're going to tackle the second most controversial question of our time, and that is whether "love actually" is the greatest movie ever or just pure, unadulterated sap. i'm a huge "love actually" fan, but -- >> i'll take the other side. >> of course you will. >> later. . let's get back to -- >> there might be no later for you, jonathan lemire. >> prime minister bouncing down the stairway. >> hold on. >> go ahead. >> okay. >> it's friday. >> thank god. let's get back to what's happening there in the middle east. yes, we have heard the administration still unequivocally, publicly saying israel has the right to defend itself, but the worries behind the scenes have really grown. the frustration with netanyahu has grown. we've been reporting for weeks now, the white house is already planning or plotting for, considering a post bibi israel. they see the poll numbers. they see how unpopular he is. the opposition leader has come out this week calling for netanyahu to step aside. there's no expectation that's going to happen immediately. there's a sense he will be allowed to steer this first phase of the war. but as the civilian casualties mount, and you're right, we can't take hamas' numbers precisely right, but there is a sense from neutral observers, as well, the numbers are high. they understand this is a difficult situation for the u.s., you know, to keep fully backing israel in every phase of the war. they're hoping they'll slow down. they're hoping this will remain a targeted search, but there's some frustration there, the temporary pause deal to let the hostages out, which was seemingly close a few days ago, now, joe, seems further apart. >> right. there's some independent numbers that are close, i think, to the numbers that, elizabeth, you were talking about. the united nations has taken a guess at it. the united states government has taken a guess at it. they're saying it's in the thousands. we don't know exactly. >> they're bad, very, very disturbing. >> yeah, very bad. very disturbing. michael, just getting back to the two-state solution, you know, there was this belief during the abraham accords. i thought it was cynical at the time. that israel could make peace with the uae. israel could make peace with the saudis. >> absolutely. >> israel could make peace with bahrain. >> sure. >> israel could make peace with everybody and just pretend the palestinians weren't there. we said it at the time. >> right. >> like, you think you can work around -- i said this to people in the trump administration -- you think you can work around the palestinians? they're not going anywhere. it underlined two things. one, that the israelis were cynical and were doing everything they could to ignore the palestinians' plight. the second thing is, it's not really reported as much, just how much the palestinians' neighbors just detest them, have no use for them, haven't had any use for them for a very long time, don't want them in their country, and are willing to actually team up, the sunni arab nations, team up with israel. >> right. >> and at the expense of the palestinia palestinians. now, it's blown up for the entire region. now, they're paying in jordan. they're paying in egypt. they're paying in saudi arabia. again, for not tackling this issue head on. all i'm saying is, when we get through this first phase, however long that next month or so, and netanyahu moves aside, the united states has to say, "yes, we support your right to defend yourself, to destroy hamas, but we also are going to demand the other end of that. it's not going to be easy to do now, but at some point, you've got to move to a two-state solution and take care of the chaos that's going on in the west bank." >> i think you're right about that. in the end, we're talking in a post netanyahu israel, you're going to have emerge, presumably, as was reported, you know, the opposition is already beginning to position. the israeli people want that change. you're going to have a momentum or an energy behind that, so the work and the lift by the u.s. won't be necessarily as difficult as it otherwise would be. >> right. >> which is a good thing for u.s. policy. but more to the point of what you're making, the powers in the region will have a greater incentive on the heels of all of this now to get behind that two-state solution in a way that, before october 7th, they were disinclined to do for their own particular reasons. >> that is the one thing that's going to come out of this, people hope. basically, this is the only viable solution out of this mess, is a two-state solution. you know, this has been discussed for the past month, that this is the one thing that will come out of this disaster, is that this is the only way forward. increasingly, people will see that in the middle east. interestingly, "the times" had a really interesting interview with hamas leaders a week or so ago. they basically were feeling so isolated in the region that they launched this attack as kind of a last resort because they felt completely abandoned by everybody else and realized this was the last thing they could do. >> american politics is moving this way, too. it is interesting that, even before the october the 7th attack, gallup poll for the first time earlier this year, that amongst democrats, there was more sympathy for palestinians than there was for israel. since the attack, 60% of people under 30 in this country say that america shouldn't be arming israel in the way that it is at the moment. that's a shift taking place in american politics that i think if you had a two-state solution that was actually viable with a leader in israel that actually seemed to be doing something for palestinians, not just constantly against them, that could help american politics. could help the white house, too, as there is pressure building. >> like osama bin laden when the towers fell, hamas has been victims of catastrophic success, as the saying goes. they left israel, its allies, even the arab nations with no alternative to move away from them and move toward a future solution. that means for sunni arab nations, they can no longer cynically ignore the palestinians' plight. they're going to have to work together in the region, along with israel, the united states, and everybody else, to move toward a two-state solution. it might be helpful if israel stops the illegal settlements. because every illegal settlement set up at this point makes the entire process that much uglier down the road. they've been doing that for years now. when we come back, a follow-up on yesterday's conversation about how, i don't know why, but my old party just loves to hate the united states of america. you know, used to be we'd raise flags, sing "we're proud to be americans." we'd go, "america is the greatest country in the world hell yeah." now, donald trump is constantly trashing the united states of america, constantly trashing the military, constantly trashing our law enforcement officers in the intel community, and we've got a speaker that says the united states is depraved. a sodom and gomorrah, and that jesus is coming for us. how do you rule a country that you think so little of? we'll talk about that when we return on this happy, happy friday. medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. beautiful picture of the united states capitol. 6:21 in the morning. the sun thinking about coming up on a friday morning. a new report by "rolling stone" looks into house speaker johnson's views on american culture, which he calls, quote, dark and depraved. in an october prayer call last month with the world prayer network, weeks before he became speaker of the house, johnson talked about an america facing a civilizational moment. >> the only question is, is god going to allow our nation to enter a time of judgment for our collective sins, which his mercy and grace have held back for some time, or is he going to give us one more chance to restore the foundations and return to him? we won't be able to do it without the lord's help because the flesh and the mistrust and the sin and everything is so great here that this is going to have to bring people to their knees. i believe god is about to do something. >> do you have time to answer the question or say anything more about the issue of, this could be a time of judgment for america? >> well, i'd say i'd preach to the choir on this zoom call, as you all know the terrible state we're in. the faith in our institutions is the lowest it's ever been in the history of the nation. the culture is so dark and depraved it almost seems irredeemable at this point. church attendance in america dropped below 50% for the first time in our history, since they began to measure the data 60 years ago. the number of people who do not believe in absolute truth is now above the majority for the first time. one in three teen girls contemplated suicide last year. one in four high school students identify as something other than straight. we're losing the country. >> where to begin there, joe? there's so much. america is irredeemable. it's dark and depraved. let's lift ourselves out of the subtext. he went on to say really what he is talking about here, that we have be gay people in america. he said one in four high school students say that they are something other than straight, is the way he put it. he is worried about that. also, i just have to say, joe, he said the faith in our institutions and doubt about absolute truth. this is the man who helped to lead the attempted coup against the united states government and helped to overturn the election. he's worried about faith in institutions. >> willie, he ran the big lie on capitol hill. >> yes. >> preach about that, jimmy swaggart, right? go to your motel room and start faxing around, you know, conspiratorial documents. there's so much hypocrisy. whether it is jim and tammy faye bakker, jimmy swaggart. there's so much hypocrisy to go to here. about a guy, again, trying to undermine our institutions. the guy who led in the house of representatives the attempt to undermine the united states constitution in an attempt to end democracy. suddenly, this great prophet, this jeremiah of our times went quietly silent, as mobs rushed the people's house where he was and battered and abused police officers with american flags that our soldiers, sailors, marine, and airmen took into battle over 200 years to defend this country. the hypocrisy, in the words of, i think homer simpson when someone accidentally threw communion water in his eyes, it burns. there's so much hypocrisy. that's part one. part two is, i have to go back to the question i asked yesterday. i'm serious. why do republicans hate america so much? i'm an evangelical. i believe, whether people think it's crazy or not, i believe, you know, what the gospels say. >> right. >> i believe what the sermon on the mount says. i believe in jesus. we're all sinners. we're all fallen, right? >> yup. >> but i'm very optimistic about america's future. i see the good in people. i see the good in the country. it is interesting, he is trying to dig statistics about, i don't know, drag queen shows or something. >> yeah. >> what i see is that, not so long ago, teenage pregnancy at an all-time low in america. that's something we always heard about, you know, in the southern baptist church growing up. child poverty over the last year, like a 50, 60 year low. our economy doing well. a lot of things going in the right direction. but i've got to say, if he's worried about pews emptying out, talk to young people. so many will tell you, and russell morris talked about this today, they're emptying out because they don't want to go to a church where preachers worship donald trump instead of jesus christ. >> yeah. so he represents the fullness of the emergence of the christian nationalism that sees america through a very different gospel than the man they profess to follow, jesus, preached. in fact, as reported a month or so ago, where you have now evangelicals thinking, well, we can't follow the teachings of jesus because they're too woke. >> right. jesus becomes woke for guys like him. >> and weak. >> and weak. >> and don jr. and other people around trump said, oh, the whole thing about turning the other cheek, that's weak. that doesn't work anymore. >> haven't they banned the bible in some districts in texas? >> when you ban the bible and things like that, when you start reimagining the teachings of christ in your image or the image of donald trump, you have a problem. the problem of the speaker from where i'm sitting, it harkens back to the concerns people had about catholics in this country for a long, long time. getting them close to power and, you know, with their tendencies would animate the government. what's this? what is this? i would say, before you open your mouth next time, can you read what the founders said about religion, number one, in this country as they were forming it. number two, read their stories and understand what kind of men they were. they weren't the kind of christmas you think they were. that you make them out to be. a. now, you're trying to reimagine this in a way that even they tried hard to avoid. i think to your point about the pews in the churches, the fact is, no one, whether you're 30 years old or 90 years old, want to hear that from a political leader. >> that's my next question for you. what percentage of americans does this appeal to? a large percentage of the republican party now. >> about a third. evangelicals. >> but it turns off -- >> ron desantis has given up his -- >> -- the vast majority. it turns off everybody else. >> this is why they keep losing elections. >> right. >> they're focused on their third of their party, the 30% of their party, which makes up about 20% of the electorate. >> ron desantis ran a campaign based on the idea that a lot of americans were up in arms about exactly the kind of thing the speaker has been speaking about. where is he even in the republican primary polls? falling like a slope. >> wokism doesn't work. >> nobody cares about it that much. they don't want it. it's a smart point. it's not what america was founded on. >> can i just say, though, because we need to pull back and see that. you have this supercharged christianity saying that america is sodom and gomorrah and god has turned his back on us, when the speaker has turned his back on god in leading the big lie. that's in the legislative branch, but we have to talk about the supreme court. leonard leo is an extremist, and he is an extremist in his views about the constitution and catholicism. >> yeah. >> it is an extreme view of catholicism that has put extremists on the court, that's led to the overturning -- nobody talks about this enough. when you're talking about this happening in the house, this is the supreme court. i mean, is every appointee catholic there on the republican side? >> pretty much. >> one may have become an apiscapaleon? maybe gorsuch. but they have views that led them to overturn, against all sort of public opinion polls, and i would say against pretty good, strong 50-year precedent, to overturn the right to abortion. >> again, it's the reimagination of judicial, constitutional principles in a religious way. that is the connection that draws these individuals to this space. now is their hour, their time to do these things. >> but is it? look what's happened since roe v. wade in the last year. state after state reaffirmed the right to abortion. there's no less abortions now in the united states than there were before. >> right. >> they had their moment, but the people have spoken, i would say. >> that's the ultimate check. >> except for the supreme court will dominate political life and life and our bedroom lives for 30, 40 years because they're young and will be there a long time. in a way, one of the things that always strikes me from the outside looking at american elections is how you cannot win an american election unless you profess your faith, particularly your christian faith. isn't this a logical extension of that? wasn't this inevitably going to happen? if you have to say, i am a christmas and i believe in god and jesus in order to be elected in this country, how does that -- >> biden does. he is not a leonard leo catholic, but biden professes his faith. >> yeah. he doesn't wear his faith -- >> he doesn't talk about it all the time. >> it's not a political shield. >> there isn't a lot of room in american political life for the atheism that you were talking about was there amongst the founding fathers. >> there isn't today. you're right about that. but what is important -- >> by the way, the founders didn't say, hey, everybody, i'm a deist. they were politicians, too, and played both sides. no doubt, it was a more secular approach to government. that started changing, actually, in america at the turn of the -- >> jimmy carter. >> well, but in the 19th century, there was sort of a great reawakening that turned its back on a lot of the sort of classical thought of the founders. >> the founders came out of an environment in england that, at that time, they wanted to make it very clear that we're not going to fall into the trap that the brits fell into with, you know, the fights over religion and the wars and things like that. while they were men of faith, they wanted to create something in which that would not be the dominant thing. that would be the driver of the politics of the nation and all the other aspects of living here. that's why they wrote the document the way they did. >> i have to agree with elizabeth, willie. this distorted view of the gospels, it plays to a very, very small crowd. even evangelicals like myself and russell moore, david french, go down the list, people that have been going to southern baptist churches their entire lives are scratching their head. you know, it really goes back, nobody wants to really talk about this, but in our church, it goes back to 1979. i was in high school. going to church, you know, my parents sent us to church three, four days a week. that church and every other southern baptist church was pro choice. they actually had at southern baptist conventions, they passed pro choice resolutions. they continued to confirm that view until jerry falwell and republican operatives decided they needed an issue to pry working class americans and working class catholics away from the southern baptist president of the united states, jimmy carter. so richard vigory, wyrick and falwell said, listen, for those who have ears to hear, listen to this, they said, we're going to make abortion a religious issue. we're going to make this an issue that's going to drive working class voters away from the southern baptist democrat into the arms of the republican party. so they did that and, suddenly, abortion became a litmus test, not just for being a conservative, but in the most perverse sense ever, really the most perverse sense ever if you see what's happened over the past 45 years, to being a christian. when my grandmother, my mother, my aunts, people who grew up and whose existence was shaped by the southern baptist church and by the teachings of jesus christ, never held these views. because, well, the church didn't hold these views until people who did direct mail for republicans decided this would be a great issue in 1980. >> boy, has it become one. mike johnson embodies that. you can go back 20 years to some of the things, not only that he said in interviews, where he said, you know, gay marriage would lead to people marrying their pets, is a thing he said many times, but also as a lawyer. >> i have to say, willie -- >> constitutional lawyers. >> -- that is a leap. >> it is. >> i have to say. >> not for mike. not for your speaker of the house. >> i'm just -- you know what? >> marry your pets, huh? >> in the southern baptist church, when we had people obsessing over certain things, we'd take them aside and go, "you doing okay, friend? do you need to talk privately with a pastor? because you sure are taking up a lot of time in sunday school obsessing over marrying your pets." none of us are thinking that. i'm telling you, just like donald trump with his beauty pageants and everything else, projection, projection. i mean, it's all -- it's just overcompensation, man. that's all it is. >> there's a lot of protesting in all of that. but speaker johnson, obviously, i just want to underline the comments from "rolling stone" was not 20 years ago when he was a lawyer. it was october 3rd, three weeks before he became speaker of the house. no many knew who he was on october 3rd, but they sure do now. we heard of the view he has on america on a number of issues, more broadly, it deserves god's wrath for all the things we just talked about. coming up, we're going to turn the page a bit. nikki haley appears to be benefitting from a shrinking field in the republican presidential primary, creeping up again in another poll. we'll tell you about the new donors she's also picking up and show you where she stands in that latest poll out of new hampshire. 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[speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. beautiful live picture with the sun up over the white house. 6:42 on a friday morning. nikki haley is picking up more campaign cash and support in the race for the republican presidential nomination. some donors who previously have backed south carolina senator tim scott are now shifting to haley after his exit from the race this week. meanwhile, billionaire hedge fund ceo ken griffin, who gave millions to ron dans for his campaigns for florida governor, told bloomberg tv this week he is, quote, actively contemplating backing haley. a new poll by cnn and the university of new hampshire released yesterday shows donald trump with a commanding lead in the state at 42%, but haley the clear second choice at 20 percentage points. six points higher than chris christie. joe, nikki haley had a couple good debates, particularly the last one with five of them on the stage. she certainly shined. i guess the question is, does any of it matter given the margins donald trump has? >> i mean, 42% matters. imagine barack obama was running to be democratic nominee even this year in an open field. would he be getting 42%? it'd be 85%, 90%. there's still a lot of doubt in the republican party about donald trump. nikki haley at 20% is pretty good. i will say, if a donor, and i'm sure you'd be the same with me, if a donor said they were actively contemplating supporting me and i was sitting across the table, i'd do this. >> yeah. >> okay. >> that's what i'd do. >> i'll be here. you keep actively contemplating. >> just write the check. >> i think they're going that way. with chris christie or desantis out of the race, this race suddenly becomes a ten-point -- >> but they haven't. here's the thing, you drop out -- in an environment like this, joe, the politics dictates, in my view. you drop out, you endorse. >> right. if you're tim scott, you say, i'm dropping out and supporting nikki or dropping out and supporting christie. you cannot in this campaign, with donald trump at 42% in new hampshire and much more in other jurisdictions and locations, you cannot hedge your bets with the donors, the political actors. you have to be precise and very clear. it's the only way you whittle this thing down. >> right. >> once it's set itself up to be a trump/haley battle, but you still have men on the stage who won't give that air and let it breathe, you have donors who won't let it breathe, actively contemplating is not actively doing. so the reality of it is none of this matters until they make it matter. it is nice headlines and looks good. she's sitting at 20%. but the end of the day, donald trump is still the nominee of the party until they prove otherwise. >> here is my question about the republican party. all the polls show that she does better against biden than trump does. >> easy. >> all of them. she's done very well on those debates. she's done something very hard for women candidates to do. she's put down ramaswamy in a way that is cutting but amusing. she doesn't offend people, right? >> right. >> so what is with the republicans, your party, that they don't see this? trump is going to be facing four trials next year in the middle of the campaign. >> they don't care about that. what they care about is what trump wants, what trump is doing. that is their avatar. that's where they feel their retribution comes. he is the one who is going to make it right, the way they want it. nikki haley doesn't do that. in their view, nikki haley, yeah, she was in the administration, but she's not all the way trump. chris christie certainly is not. the reality for a lot of his supporters is, why would i go with light when i've got the real deal? >> even if light might beat the president? >> purism over practicality. >> purism over practicality. at the core of it, and this is something that clearly has been reported, they genuinely believe this time next year, donald trump will be getting ready to go back to the white house. >> they keep losing. they keep losing with donald trump. they've lost every year since 20 consecutively. let's bring in sam stein, white house editor for "politico." >> thank you. >> they keep losing. losing with donald trump for some is better than winning with somebody else. nikki haley does clearly outshine donald trump in the general election. i will say, though, sitting at 20%, rising up from, what, maybe 7%, 8% a couple months ago, and being there in november, i'd take that any day of the week. >> yeah, there's a path here, right? it wasn't visible a couple weeks ago, but you can see it starting to form. i don't think it's particularly a great path, but it's there. if you add up the three non-trump candidates, 20, 14, 9, that's 43%. trump is at 42%. now, it doesn't work that way. it's not like every vote who moves on from ron desantis is going to back nikki haley. probably back donald trump. but there is a path. now, i will say, the electability argument, that's a powerful one, but, obviously, republican voters don't buy it. >> they don't care. >> you mentioned the trials. >> wait, they're telling pollsters they don't care. i have a lot of family members and friends that were all in for trump in '16 and '20, who loathe him now. >> right. >> i'm not so sure they'd admit that to a pollster calling them up. >> that might be the case. i thought about whether the polls overstate things for him. i will say, what we were able to report on the trials, which i think plays into this a little bit here, it's not that they're just ignoring the trials. the trials are actively helping trump in the primary. primary voters rally around him because they think he is being targeted by his political opponents. >> right. >> they feel empathy for him. we know this because the club for growth, conservative group that was opposed to trump -- >> don't call them the conservative -- >> sorry. >> they used to be. a formerly conservative group that used to worry about balancing the budget and debt. >> for the purposes of this conversation, a group close to trump, their allied pac ran focus group ads, going after his legal troubles. four of the ads they put together, three increased support for trump. the fourth one kept things normal. that's why you see none of the other primary candidates using trump's trials against him in the course of this primary. it's just not touched because it actually works to trump's advantage. >> he has successfully made the trials about them. >> of course. >> he's transferred his victimhood. >> our polls show if he is convicted, that changes things. >> yeah. >> that changes things considerably. >> you're talking about the general electorate. i'm talking about the primary, where the -- >> the republicans have a very high, high bar for turning on trump. okay, if he's only indicted for stealing nuclear secrets from the united states of america, we're good with that. if he is convicted, eh, maybe. >> maybe. jonathan lemire, it is interesting, what sam was talking about, and it is true, that donald trump was sort of in a shaky position until the manhattan indictment came down. then his numbers started to go up. they've continued to go up with every passing indictment. it is fascinating. you look now, maybe starting to epia little bit. i'm curious, if there are no more indictments between now and new hampshire, that's a big if, if race could get close, could get tight. >> trump was really wounded after the 2022 midterms, where there was real talk of the party moving away from him. desantis had this huge win in florida. trump adviors tried to get him to hold off his announcement because so many candidates lost and there was momentum against trump there. trump went forward with it because his bet was he needs to run to stay out of jail. what he didn't count on, but what has happened, and you noted it, he's effectively transferred the prosecutions against him and making them about his supporters. if they can come for me, they can come for you. it is this deep state witch hunt. there seems to be a little closing, but we shouldn't overstate it, about where the race stands right now. nikki haley deserves credit. she's clearly become the best alternative. desantis still seems deeply damaged. as sam just mentioned, polling suggests that for so many of these candidates, their second place choice is trump. >> is trump. >> they may go to trump if desantis bows out or if christie can't make it to a primary day or whatever it might be. so this is still donald trump's race to lose, no question. then we see when the trials start. at the moment, there is a belief, probably just the one, the january 6th federal election trial, that will start and conclude, maybe even get to sentencing before election day. that won't happen before the primaries, but it'd certainly have to factor into any general election calculation. >> speaking of the general election, sam, we really do see a divided republican party here with, again, a former president getting 40%, a man who is supposed to be running this massive movement nationwide. look at the new hampshire polls, emerson polls from earlier this week in new hampshire. new hampshire, obviously an extraordinarily important state. >> yeah. >> in the general election. it has been since 2000. joe biden has a 37% approval rating there, beats donald trump by five percentage points in new hampshire. >> right. i think it's woefully premature to talk about biden's weaknesses in the general election right now. with don't know what the political landscape might look like in half a year, let alone three months. there are clear vulnerabilities, right? we see it time and time again, age questions, stamina, enthusiasm among the base. we see it personified in protests outside the dnc. that doesn't mean that things won't change. of course, the biden people are hoping for the change. the variable for me is not just can biden shore up his base, can he actually effectively find a retort to the issue of age which isn't going away, obviously, but what happens with these third-party candidates on top of that? especially in a state like new hampshire. >> right. >> huge independent streak up there. libertarian streak up there. does someone like robert f. kennedy jr. come in and really pull 5%, 10%? i don't know. cornell west is making big plays in states like michigan, for instance, to the arab muslim american and black populations there. does it take 2%, 4%? we're talking about margins of victory that could be in the tens of thousands. that is a game-changer. >> elisabeth, you never know which way the independent candidates will cut. >> rfk jr. takes as much from -- more from trump, potentially, given his stance on, you know, anti-vax and just his very extreme positions. it is hard to tell. cornell west takes more from biden. trump, you know, it is interesting about trump, he was praising rfk jr. as this great guy. all of a sudden, he turns on him. looks like he'll take votes away from him, it's like night and day. >> amazing, willie. donald trump actually turning on somebody he once praised, never seen that before. >> who could have seen that coming. guys, thanks so much. elisabeth bumiller, sam stein, thank you, both, and have a great weekend. see you next week. ahead, immigration will likely play a big role in the 2024 presidential election. steve rattner says the discussion about that issue is filled with misinformation. he is standing by at the southwest wall, like watching rivera warm up in the bullpen to close things out. he has the charts next on "morning joe." you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ what causes a curve down there? can it be treated? stop typing, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. and 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[dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ george santos claims he was mugged behind where i'm standing on fifth avenue in broad daylight in the middle of the afternoon in the summer. >> survey said -- >> my grandparents escaped socialism. they've escaped communism and the holocaust. >> apparently, santos told potential donors in the run-up to his election he had been a producer for the broadway musical "spiderman: turn off the dark." >> i actually went to school on a volleyball scholarship. kneest knee replacements playing volleyball. >> he previously claimed he was the target of an assassination attempt. >> there is no record that she was there that day at all. >> i state -- >> there is a record of every leerson in both those towers. >> i state convinced that that's the truth. >> wild exaggerations about his success, claiming, for instance, he had a role on a popular disney channel program, "hannah montana." >> i just discovered what only fans was three weeks ago when brought up. >> what do you think? >> i was oblivious to the concept. >> just can't tell the truth. >> wow. >> wow, playing "the feud," joe. the ethics violations where somebody takes you out to lunch and he pays for it, and you forget to file it. then the ethics violations where you use campaign funds to buy scarves and only fans account, allegedly, and to pay for your botox. >> yeah. i mean, you know, leibovich, it's like the line from broadcast news, they keep moving the lines on us, don't they? >> they do keep moving the linings. you know what i heard? i have a source that said that he actually also was taken to lunch by someone and paid for it. someone else paid for it, a lobbyist. >> can't do that. >> can't do that. on top of everything else now. >> and sephora. he went to sephora, mike allen. you and i, a lot of times, when i'm up on weekends, we go and wander through the store. >> i actually have an endorsement deal. >> of course. why do you think i invite you when i go in there? oh, you're with mike, 25% off all your plush. anyway, by the way, what is he wearing there? what is this? what is that outfit? who is that? yes, the correct question is, who is he wearing? not there. >> that is not a >> that was not veronica beard. that was not anything that i've recognized. here we go. mise of campaign funds. mike allen, he's been he's done that. >> yeah. this has been the least mice mysterious ethics investigation, i think, ever. >> intriguing ndings, nevertheless. >> no question. the damning detail and, like, it's so hurt the republican brand. every time republican leaders defend him, keep him, it makes it more likely they're going to lose the majority. >> yeah. >> i'm beginning to think this could really hurt george santos politically. >> you think so? >> leibovich, keen political sense you've dropped over the decades. >> i don't see him recovering any time soon. he needs to keep his head down for maybe a few weeks, work on some issues, come back. >> does that mean you're going to file the santos for governor piece you were writing for "the atlantic"? >> actually, i've already written it, and it ran on the cover this last month. you didn't see it? >> no. >> my god, i mean, i just learned about it, but it happened. >> i missed that one. jackie, while you're here, we've been talking about mike johnson, speaker of the house, talking about america sort of sodom and gomorrah, the "rolling stone" article about how he says we're coming to the bitter end because we're such a sinful nation. of course, he's the guy who, you know, was leading the big lie. >> mike johnson has an interesting world view that we're all getting to know right now, as everyone parses through his extremely large volume of public statements, podcasts, and everything he's done in his relatively quiet career over the past 20 years. election denier is probably his most recent role that he spearheaded in the house gop conference, what he is most known more prior to ascending to the speakership. he was the republican in the house gop conference who got the other republicans to sign on to the amicus briefing to allow battleground state -- or to try to get battleground states to overturn the results of the election. he has yet to answer that question still of whether or not he believes the 2020 election was stolen. it's something he said the day after he became speaker, that, you know, was not a topic, an issue they would be discussing at the moment. he still hasn't addressed it. >> again, despite the fact he led the effort to overturn american democracy, he says he doesn't want to talk about it. >> yeah. i mean, like a lot of the politicians that we see in d.c., now he's in a leadership position, he is remaining much quieter and more subtle about things. behind closed doors, i mean, we heard yesterday that he was calling up lawmakers after our reporting about him taking a more measured and rational tone. >> rational is the word. >> he was calling up members, the far-right members, and assuring him he still supports the impeachment proceeding. that is the big question that still lingers amongst republicans right now, like, who is mike johnson? is what he is saying to us actually something he is going to follow through on? >> right. who is mike johnson? leibovich, take a listen and give me your take on this. >> the only question is, is god going to allow our nation to enter a time of judgment for our collective sins, which his mercy and grace have held back for some time, or is he going to give us one more chance to restore the foundations and return to him? we will not be able to do it without the lord's help because there's so -- the flesh and the mistrust and the sin and everything is so great here. this is going to have to bring people to their knees. look, i believe god is about to do something. >> do you have time to answer the question, say anything more about the issue of, this could be a time of judgment for america? >> well, i mean, i don't -- i'd preach to the choir on this zoom call or maybe the honor choir. you all know the terrible state we're in. the faith in our institutions is the lowest it's ever been in the history of our nation. the culture is so dark and depraved it almost seems irredeemable at this point. you know, the church attendance in america dropped below 50% for the first time in our history since they began to measure the data 60 years ago. and the number of people who do not believe in absolute truth is above the majority for the first time. one in three teen girls contemplated suicide last year. one in four high school students identify as something other than straight. we're losing the country. >> well, i mean, if they're losing the country, if they're losing church attendees, look no further than himself and those around him. so many young people have stopped going to church. russell moore talked about it before. "christianity today," former leader in the southern baptist church. they're so offended by the politics their preachers have brought in during the age of trump. trumpism is the antithesis of what jesus teaches on the sermon in the mount in matthew. collective judgment, talking about how terrible america is. all republicans seem to -- a lot of republicans seem to hate america, trump republicans seem to hate america. they tell us all the time how bad it is. this is what i thought was so fascinating, trust in our foundations have never been lower. after he and donald trump lied through their teeth for a year, lied through their teeth for a year about american democracy being stolen. then he led the big lie. that self-righteous guy led the big lie in the house of representatives. david french said, that ain't in my bible. leading the big lie to try to overthrow american democracy and then being self-righteous on a call and saying, oh, the faith in our institutions are terrible. isn't this what we've heard from republicans for the past several years? after saying america sucks, after saying, oh, democracy is terrible. oh, you can't trust voting machines or mail-in ballots. then they go, we have to do it because faith among our constituents is pretty low, after they've been lying through their teeth for a year. this guy is the liar in chief on the big lie in the house of representatives. he's talking about a lack of faith in institutions that he caused? i'm sure there is some arsonist metaphor. >> oh, yeah, i don't have the arsonist metaphor. >> give it to me. this is like a guy burning a house down -- >> then calling the fire department or just actually hemming and hawing and talking about the terrible issue of fires. >> while the house is burning behind him, he says, i'm not going to talk about that, but have you noticed, these shrubs could use some trimming over here. it's messy. while the house, they can see the image of the house in flames and he is talking about the hedges. how is that, leibovich? is that good? >> it's more than good. >> you can see it, can't you? >> it is ectatic. i'm ectatic to hear it. >> that's what he is doing now. >> no, he is. look, everything you're saying is self-evident to everyone, i assume, around this table, and to everyone -- many, many people watching this at home. but we're sitting around here talking about, oh, he is an election denier, now he won't talk about it. there is no shame in today's republican party about being an election denier. >> it's a prerequisite. >> if he was not an election denier, he wouldn't be speaker. >> he is preaching the downfall of america because of the lack of faith in institutions that he caused, and he is hiding behind jesus to do it. >> again, you know, it makes -- this is very self-evident, but you're talking about these silos, these bubbles, where the context of this -- first of all, people hear despair. you can preach despair across the spectrum, and, you know, despair is real. it doesn't matter where it comes from or what environment you're in. people genuinely feel despair. it might be based on unreality, based on lies. it might be based on influences that are not something people should take seriously, but it's real. that is going to have a marketplace, as it would in other environments. >> the catastrophiing provides democrats a wonderful opportunity. what about being proud to be an american? >> yeah. >> what about being proud to be part of an american democracy that has fed and freed more people than any other government ever invented in mankind, in the history of mankind. how about being proud of a military that continues every day and night to protest americans' freedom, here and across the global, instead of republicans who hate the military, who hate military leaders, who say the horrible things they said to the chairman of the joint chiefs, and people like tucker carlson calling the leader of our military a pig and republicans saluting that and then starting to attack him themselves? then, you know, you move on, and you see what tommy tuberville is doing, saying that what they're doing is no more stressful than coaching against appalachian state. it's all, you know, i think americans love their country, and i think this is a great opening, a great opening for democratic candidates to defend the country that donald trump says is going to hell. >> yeah. i mean, as you've pointed out, the other side keeps losing by continuing with the grievance. you could run on the american military being the strongest in the world, american leadership being restored, the american economy rebounding from covid, and being stronger than any other country in the world. you could -- and democracy, while constantly under threat, more people are voting and people are constantly making efforts to make it safer, to make it easier to vote. and, you know, president biden could do this. it's not just bidenomics, it's the american people did this, right? the american people, because it is the greatest country in the world, because this is where everyone wants to be, where people want to live, this is where people want to come to, where we have the skills to develop new talent and attract new talent, that's what you could be running on. >> the fed has been trying to knock down the economy now for two years. they can't do it. it's too strong. >> yeah. >> i'm serious. >> right. >> every month, we're like, oh, my god, look at the jobs. oh, look at how well -- i mean, mike, our economy, as jen said, strongest in the world, stronger than china's, stronger than europe. people would kill to have america's economy, yet all of these republicans bitching and whining about how bad things are while they're getting richer by the day. >> exactly. just to add one more to jen's list, opportunity. you, joe, are living proof, biden is living proof, like that is something to run on. that's what people want to hear. >> because we're state schoolboys, right? >> that's right. >> pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps. >> roll tide. >> delaware blue hens. >> you know, if you want to hear about how great america is, talk to an immigrant. i know a lot of republicans hate immigrants. a lot of republicans hate ronald reagan, what he said about immigrants in his final speech as president of the united states. saying that when we stop letting immigrants in, america grows old, it grows tired, it goes stale, we go into decline. you want to hear about the greatness of america? go to an immigrant that just raised their hand and became -- i have never seen one, never heard one, never talked to someone who is in one that it didn't bring a tear to my eye. there are people, with all apologies to donald trump, mike johnson, everybody else who hates this country and thinks it is in decline, there are a hell of a lot of people who love america and still think the streets are paved with gold here, if they can only get in. >> look at innovators, leaders, inventors in tech, that's america welcoming the world. >> no doubt about it. willie, speaking of immigration, it's a huge issue. joe biden has a bill that he desperately wants the republicans to pass so we can actually get some funding down to shore up the southern border, but republicans won't do that either. >> there is a crisis at the border, and the cr that just passed doesn't include the border, which has given the white house the upper hand to say, we want to fix the problem at the border, republicans. won't you help us? you professed to be socon so concerned, let's get moving. southern migrants will be a big factor in the 2024 election. according to "the new york times," the current frontrunner, former president trump, plans to address immigration with mass deportations, detention camps, and a new muslim ban if he is re-elected. that's right, banning a religious group from coming to the united states. the biden administration described trump's reported plan as extreme, racist, and cruel. our next guest says the immigration policy is clouded by misinformation, and he is our good friend, former treasury official, "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner at the southwest wall with his charts. steve, good morning. let's begin with the reality of what exactly is happening right now at the southern border. >> yeah, willie, there is an enormous amount of misinformation. i got interested in this issue to try to figure it out. here's what i learned. let's start at the south border, where we've had this surge in encounters. it's not quite what people think. yeah, this is a surge. you can see it's up to 2.5 million people. these are not people who snuck into the country, contrary to what many may think. these are not people who snuck into the country. these are people who ended up in the hands of customs and border protection. these are people we can call were apprehended, stopped into getting into the country and went into the immigration system, which i will explain. if you come over here, my colleague, eric krebs, and i put this together because it is so complicated, i'm not going to go through it all, but let me give you the takeaways, so to speak. 2.5 million people encountered, apprehended, whatever you call it, at the southern border. we think the, the government thinks, that another 600,000 did successfully sneak in the country, swam across the rio grande, whatever they did. the important point to know is that 80% of the people who tried to get across the southern border were apprehended, were in the hands of custom and border protection. that's a pretty good percentage of success, 80% in our hands. the problem is, we have this unbelievably broken system. i'm not going to go through all this, as i said. it puts people through all kinds of different routes and channels and so on. when the dust settled, what happened with those 2.5 million people last year was that just under 1 million were sent back, deported, otherwise removed from the country. the rest of them go into this system of immigration courts, applications for asylum, applications for other kinds of humanitarian relief. because the courts are so backlogged, and to joe's earlier point, because the government will not fully fund this because of the partisanship of it, 2.5 million people, roughly, 2.4 million people stayed in the country. they're in a system of trying to get asylum, trying to get humanitarian relief, or eventually getting deported, but they're here for now. so this is really the problem with our system. we cannot get these people processed, so they sit here. what is the problem? we're underfunded, as you said, and so there has been this huge increase in backlogs in the immigration courts. this is the 2.5 million people, again, added to the backlog i showed there, all the way up from less than 500,000 a few years ago. we need to fund the immigration system, and we also need to reform it in a way where people can get much faster treatment of their requests to stay in the country or get deported. >> steve, before you move on to your third chart, what all is going into that spike? it is a big spike we're seeing on the charts behind you. republicans say it is the weakness of joe biden, that he signalled our borders are open so come on up. we should point out that president obama, under president obama, the numbers were very low. he was even called by democrats the deporter in chief. under donald trump, they did come back up. would you look at the patterns? what goes into that? >> that's a great question, willie, and i should have addressed it. yeah, probably there are some people who heard the president's softer message, president biden's softer message the beginning of his term, about we're not going to build any more wall, do a few other things. the bulk of it, we think, is because economic conditions, to joe's earlier point, are very strong here, and people know that. they want to come and get jobs. by contrast, economic conditions in latin america had the worst recovery from covid, much worse recovery from covid, so they're desperate. then you have countries like haiti, nicaragua, venezuela that are so strife ridden, difficult to live in, people just want to leave. it is a complicated set of reasons. i'd again emphasize, these are not people who snuck. ♪ in the country. these are people who were caught trying to enter the country or tried to enter the country and ended up in our system, under our control. 80% of the people who showed up at the southern border last year ended up in the hands of customs and border protection. >> all right. as we move to your third chart there, steve, what does it tell us about our population, about what immigration means to our workforce, and the age of the people who live here? >> yeah. as i tried to say, we're not being overrun by immigrants, legal or otherwise. that is actually a problem. it is a problem for this reason. our rate is declining, fewer babies per woman. whole set of reasons for that. if you look at the population projections, if we had no immigration in this country, our population would peak next year, then it'd start to decline all the way like that, out to just over 200 million at the end of the century. we take in roughly a million immigrants a year legally now through various processes. that'll hold our population at roughly flat. if we want our population to grow at the same rate that it grew at in the 20 years from 2000 to 2020, we need to take in 3 million immigrants a year. there is a strong argument to why we need more immigration, not less. by contrast, china. china doesn't have any immigration. they have emigration, 300,000 people a year leaving. china's population already peaked and could decline to as little as 770 million by the end of the century. we want to look like this, not that. you need immigration to do that. now, for the past 30 years, the number of immigrants we take from the normal way, people who apply for visas and want to live in america or are already here on some basis and want a green card to stay, has been basically flat, around 1 million. even though our population has grown, though the number of jobs and people we need to do the jobs has grown, we're not taking any more through the normal visa process than we were 30 years ago. that's a mistake. we should also point out, of the ones we do take, only 27% are coming here for a job-related reason, to provide a skill or job/service we need. others are coming for good reasons. 58% for family reunification or humanitarian. we need people to come here and take the jobs of the future that we're creating at the moment. >> a great look at a very complicated problem. steve rattner at the southwest wall with his charts, steve, thanks so much. this has become a fascinating issue, jonathan lemire, for president biden, for his campaign, for the white house. they do have -- it's been a problem for him, that they haven't moved quickly enough. there is a crisis, and there are record crossings and apprehensions at the border. given what donald trump is proposing, which is rounding people up in camps, perhaps denying birthright citizenship, taking that away, they are able to contrast the way they would handle immigration with a potential second trump term in the white house. >> yeah, and this is a part of what has been a real ramped up effort by the biden team the last week or two, to draw these contrasts between the current president and his predecessor. there's no doubt, willie, immigration has been a tricky issue for this white house since day one. they acknowledge that privately. they know what the numbers are, and this is an area where they've gotten criticism from fellow democrats, including big city mayors and governors, who say our cities, states can't handle the influx of migrant that is have come in. also, of course, as steve laid out, the economic ramifications, as well. we just had on "way too early" this morning white house principal deputy press secretary olivia dalton pleading with congress, we need to get an immigration deal done. we're willing to work with you. we need to do it. outside of a working group in the senate, there's really no momentum there, willie. the house isn't touching it at all. and there is an effort to link border security with ukraine funding as part of this big supplemental that they hope to hash out in the next few weeks. right now, momentum doesn't look good either, no time soon anyway. >> it is going to be a big issue for the next year. coming up next, we'll dig through the scathing report detailing luxury items and a lavish weekend in atlantic city by republican congressman george santos, allegedly all on the dime of his donors. congressman dan goldman who initially filed the complaint against santos joins the conversation to talk about what happens next. plus, we will speak with the new yorker's susan glasser about her piece, "the left comes for israel." 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i mean, the lies and the violations within it are too long for us to detail here, but what did you see in there, and do you believe he actually will step down or will he wait until the next campaign? >> willie, it's truly remarkable insight into the psyche of someone who clearly has -- is a criminal wannabe mastermind. this scheme is so brazen and obvious, it'd fool no one. when congressman richie torrez and i filed the complaint in january, we did it on what seemed to be some glaring omissions and lies on the face of his campaign finance disclosures. i think i certainly expected that there would be a lot of illegal campaign finance activity. what i did not expect is that, in addition to illegal campaign finance activity, that he was just embezzling money from his campaign for his own personal use. it's one thing to deceive the voters in order to get elected. it's all together something different to do that and also steal money for his own personal use. it is as brazen or more than i certainly expected. george santos will not be in congress for very long, one way or another. >> jackie, republicans have had sort of a hands-off approach to this for quite some time. doesn't seem like that anymore, right? >> no. this is something they've kicked the can down the road on since he entered office and people knew right away there were major issues with him. kevin mccarthy especially completely ignored this issue because of how slim of a majority there is. santos' district is not sure fire republican. it seems like once the co-chair of the ethics committee, set to introduce the privileged resolution to expel santos today, when they come back from recess after thanksgiving, most republicans who had initially said, we need to at least wait for the ethics report to make this decision, are going to ultimately expel him, which is going to trigger a special election and we'll see what happens from there. >> that'll be fascinating, just to get a sort of feel for the district, the special elections before a bigger election down the road. i always remember in 2009, the open senate seat for kennedy. >> yeah. >> the shock that that produced and showed us the tea partiers were going to sweep in and 2010. so the republicans, you start adding everything up. santos, add up the craziness of the mccarthy vote, the crazies that basically held the house, the people's house sort of in check for three weeks or so, then johnson coming in, it is just absolute chaos. i'm a big believer, people think in the age of trump, used to think in the age of trump, political gravity no longer existed. there were tom hanks in the airplane for "apollo 13" filming, and they floated around for a few seconds. that's where we were in the trump era. now, the plane is hurdling back to earth, boom, boom, boom. they're all throwing up now. it's a long way to say, political gravity is returning to the republican party. i just wonder how much they're going to pay for all of this craziness. >> it doesn't help. i mean, this is so fully emblematic of the trump era in some ways. yes, i mean, we're used to a certain degree of chaos in congress. we've seen chaotic situations in congress for a very long time. the fact is, this has been such a joke of a majority. i mean, it's been a year now. you only get two years in the majority. >> what did bush say about the majority? >> chip roy was talking specifically about the fact that republicans have nothing to show for what they've done. >> not one thing. >> he said it quite eloquently. he said it in a way that i'm sure democrats -- >> in a 30-second clip. >> yes. >> easily turned into -- >> it was a gift to democrats. the fact is, yeah, between the original speaker thing, the second speaker thing, the debt ceiling, it's been one thing after another. santos is, in some ways, a joke, but it's also completely emblematic of what this congress has been. >> yeah, look what he is wearing right now. who would call that a joke? okay, they always go off of the suit at the wrong time. t.j., there we go. >> there ya go. >> america asks, what the hell is he wearing? i don't know. anyway, jonathan lemire, we'll go back to the senator on this, what he is wearing or the sephora deal. >> that was worth every penny. happy to contribute to that. >> no, no doubt about it. let's talk about chip roy for a second. i've believed in parallels between harry truman and joe biden. foreign policy, what they've done in europe, it's pretty extraordinary. truman was supposed to lose. everybody said he was sunk. even up until election night. what'd he do? he started railing against the do nothing republicans. i swear, nobody has said that more eloquently this year for joe biden than chip roy. let's listen to chip and get the congressman's response. >> what are we republican colleagues doing? heir all too happy to have this vote go down today and get on their airplanes and go home for turkey at thanksgiving. why aren't we putting another bill on the floor of the house right now and sending it over to the senate to shove it down their throats, to say that we, republicans, stand for cutting spending? we, republicans, stand for standing with israel. we, republicans, stand for securing the border of the united states. no, no, no, let's just go back and raise some money so we can do more fundraisers, so we can try to get elected, so we can come back here and offer more excuses for why we don't get the job done. one thing! i want my republican colleagues to give me one thing, one that i can go campaign on and say we did. one! anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come down to the floor and explain to me one material, meaningful, significant thing the republican majority has done besides, well, i guess it's not as bad as the democrats. >> congressman, you'll have to trim out the last line there for the campaign ad. he certainly expresses frustration at his republican colleagues, and he's created an advertisement for democrats, saying, they haven't done anything except more chaos. weigh in on what your gop colleague said there, but also let's pivot forward. some of the things he said didn't get done, border security, israel, i'll add ukraine. none of that is in the cr that kept the government open. the fate is clear. they've let many down. >> there is no question that congressman roy said it as well as any democrat could say it. for 11 months, the house republicans have done nothing, absolutely nothing to help the american people. what is remarkable, even about chip roy saying that, is he and his extreme maga right wing of the party does not seem to understand that you can't just jam things down the senate in divided government. the house republicans can't even pass their own bills, can't agree amongst themselves how to pass any meaningful legislation that has any chance of passing. they refuse to work with house democrats. we have had no bipartisanship, no effort to put together some sort of legislation that can actually help the american people, that can secure the border. trust me, we're ready to have this conversation. the president is ready. but it has to be legislation. it cannot be the administration. they want to try to use all these different issues for purely political, partisan reasons to get re-elected, not to actually pass legislation to help the american people. they don't understand how this government works, that in order to get something into law, you can't just jam it down a democratic senate and a democratic white house. >> democratic member of the house oversight committee, congressman dan goldman, thank you so much. i'd say it is a clown show but that's an insult to clowns, circuses, fairs, and horror movies across america, isn't it? you know, when you run a campaign, i remember when i'd run mine, i always had my announcement. i made sure that was filmed and that was ready. i'd tell everybody, so what we're doing now, the campaign is 11 months from now. what we're doing now is we're making our last 30-second commercial for 11 months from now. you knew you could control that. people don't understand, campaigns, oh, what about that? well, you get these clips, these 30-second clips, these 15-second clips throughout two years, four years, and that's what people are going to see the last week of the campaign. already, we know the last week of the campaign in the house, you're going to have republicans saying, we haven't done sh -- a thing. then you have donald trump saying, i'm the one who terminated abortion. i'm the one who killed roe v. wade. i'm the one who made 10-year-old girls raped by illegal immigrants flee their state. >> punished for having an abortion. >> i'm the one who said women should be punished for having abortions. i mean, just devastating clips. that's why people are saying, oh, joe biden's approval ratings are at 37%, clearly, i fall asleep. it is so irrelevant. because the clips, the evidence, the facts are so weighed against republicans. i know people like to be cynical and say, oh, facts don't matter anymore. i don't know. it's funny. trump republicans have lost seven years in a row. >> right. >> that's not an accident. >> stats don't matter as much as they used to, but it matters to a majority of the country, which is why democrats keep winning. >> right. >> you can see the path for that. the biden campaign can take it, and i understand right now that they want to push some more on the economy. they want people to understand that they've gotten stuff done. they want people to believe government can work and they can get stuff done. >> can i talk about that for a second? >> yeah. >> instead of having a big press conference saying bidenomics is working, right, go into michigan. find where it's working there. this is what people don't understand. you target the ads there. go into the precincts. go into the counties. go into the districts. say, this is what's happened in your district over the past, you know, four years. >> every battleground state has it, congressional district has something. they'll have a good story to tell, whether it is controlled by a republican or democrat. there's probably republicans trying to take credit for what democrats voted for. >> right. >> so you can see when you do step back, i mean, the congress is a mess. they can't get anything done. when i think how hakeem jeffries is sitting there thinking, we're going to vote to keep the government open and show democrats are responsible and we're going to be there when we need to be there to, you know, just have the basic government function, then we're racking up all of the crazy. >> right. >> republicans bought into the devil they didn't know with mike johnson, but the democrats have to make sure everyone knows that mike johnson, everything there is to know about him, being an election denier, you know, thinking that the country is in decline. there's some questionable, personal things, too, that you have to, you know -- that will be alarming to voters, as well. >> right. >> you see the path that, you know, is how the campaign will end. right now, the republicans are in suspended animation. >> you target the districts with the facts, and that matters. you keep hammering it. people are like, fox news, fox news, but there's fox news. we can't do anything. democracy is dead. fox news. first of all, fox news has been on the last seven years and democrats beat trump republicans the last seven years in a row. because of fox news, i'm not saying that, but the democrats bedwetting because fox news is there, fox news started, i think, in 1996. since that time, republicans have won the popular vote one time. since rush limbaugh started in '89, 1990, republicans have won the popular vote in the presidential election one time. one time. think about that. if they're destroying democracy, they're doing a really bad job at doing it. >> for the reasons we've talked around this table, this could be a very long 11 months for democrats. it's very possible numbers are soft until the very end. until the moment you were talking about, people look in the mirror and say, am i going donald trump? >> am i going with a guy that led a mob against american democracy on january 6th, said he wanted to suspend is constitution, said he was going to arrest all his enemies? yeah, i don't think so. jackie, thank you so much for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> mika says hello. >> we miss her. >> we always miss mika. she's, of course, as always, on every friday, in the south of france, somewhere in a cabana. mark leibovich, thank you, as well. >> thank you, joe. great to be here. >> was your family a crest family, colgate or aquafresh? >> we were a crest family, but the aquafresh marketing got to us because of the three colors. >> the neapolitan. >> the neapolitan toothpaste style appealed. >> cutting edge. >> it was some great marketing and advertising work there. >> we had this conversation off the air about marketing. what's leading axios' newsletter today? >> "axios" is up with a scoop from alex thompson and sophia cai. the biden administration are looking at regulating tiktok and are also thinking of using it to reach younger voters. the campaign is looking at going on tiktok. you've seen democrats around the country find ways to go on it. it's where the voters are. just this week, more people are getting their news from tiktok. >> i mean, the letter to bin laden, as dan pfeiffer said, thank god gen-xers have a short attention span, because they stopped before they got to "mein kampf." that's dark stuff right there. some dark stuff. thank you, all, for being here. "new yorker's" susan glasser will join the table in washington next. before we go to break, willie, young jack wants to know, what do you have planned for "sunday today?" >> young jack who now is 35 years old, but we're going to keep this up. >> young jack is 6'4", 230-pound lineman. seriously. >> on his way to tuscaloosa. >> yes, he is. >> jack will be very excited as he approached middle age. >> papa, papa. >> i pry not to have favorites but this is one of my favorites. the great melissa mccarthy. >> she's so great. >> she's, for my money, one of the funniest people on the planet. we went on a petty cab ride through central park. she's so much fun. to doing dramatic work. oscar-nominated work as well. just a great conversation with melissa mccarthy coming up this weekend over on msnbc "sunday today," and we'll be right back here on "morning joe" on a friday morning. the tree is up at rockefeller center. er your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. so, you know, i wanted to talk to lemire. instead, i've got the pixies. >> yeah, that's good. >> pixies are great. it's such a great song. such a great song. so lemire just sent this. prayers go out to our good friend, roger bennett whose everton just got deducted ten points by the premier league. ten points. it seems that they breached the premier league's profit and sustainability guidelines. for the three of you out there along with katty kay and i who understand what i just said, dark, dark days mercyside for everton. we're sorry, roger. with that, let's bring in susan glasser. this is what you miss when we're remote, right? it's much better to see how chaotic and shapeless this show is. so you know it's not just the delay between me and your home. right? >> you know, jazz in the morning. >> jazz in the morning. exactly. so you've written a really important timely article in "the new yorker." "the left comes for biden on israel," and this is something we could see coming. the left has always been split on israel. you of course, had the hillary clinton -- the clinton side of the democratic party and the biden side now of the democratic party that's unapologetically pro-israel, but a lot of people are not so sympathetic toward -- certainly towards benjamin netanyahu, and the israel cause in general. >> you know, i was really struck. i'm sure you guys were too, that optics, you have the president of the united states in his first face to face meeting with the chinese leader xi jinping in california. biden is giving a press conference afterwards. this is a significant moment. tensions have ratcheted up so much with the chinese, and there's biden. he kind of slips in it on this question of is xi is dictator? he says, i have to say, yes, he is. at the exact same moment the top leadership of the democratic party is actually unable -- is basically blockaded inside the democratic headquarters on capitol hill by young left-leaning protesters of their own party. you're protesting against biden's approach to the war basically. >> we're talking about college campuses and the radicalism on college campuses and the anti-semitism on college campuses, asking why professors aren't doing more, presidents and administrators aren't doing more. we're talking about what students see on tiktok. it is important for people who are just being introduced to this though to understand this is a long time coming. this split in the democratic party over israel and palestinians -- the palestinians cause took shape well before october 7th. >> i think this is a really important point. i mean, you have a situation where there were warnings for years, for years, especially because prime minister netanyahu, he really courted republicans. it became a political -- a partisan political issue. >> he was warned by the way. >> absolutely. >> in realtime, he was warned. everything that netanyahu has done, he was warned it would lead to disaster. >> well, that's right, and that they were losing a whole generation of young democrats in a way that when there was a crisis, and now here we are in a crisis, it would come back to haunt them, but the interesting question, someone i spoke with raised to me is, is this just about israel or is it possibly a kind of a broader sign of different world views now inside the democratic party? >> yeah. >> and i think that's really an interesting question. biden is a man in many ways. he's a liberal internationalist of the 20th century. >> right. >> the question is, is this a new generation of liberals for whom those same rules don't apply? >> there have been splits between, again, let's say the clinton wing of the democratic party which is more -- just more muscular, who -- again, i talked about harry truman. more internationalist, truman-like approach to the world and we see it not just in israel, but certainly see it in ukraine. i have been surprised by how united the democratic party has been in its support for ukraine. >> yeah. traveling around the country, one of the things that struck me over the course of the last year is how often democrats would raise the issue of funding to ukraine as a bad thing. as much as republicans -- i wasn't asking them about it. >> are you talking about politicians or the base? >> no. i'm talking about voters arguing. progressive democrats who would say to me, why are we spending $40 billion in ukraine when we should trying to help people back home? you could hear that on the campaign trail. one of the important things about israel and i was mentioning that in the program, is the gallup polling much before october the 7th showed that democrats had switched their support for the first time ever for palestinians rather than israelis and you're seeing it in the republican party. you're also seeing support for israel decline in the republican party and that reflects a world view. that we have expected because we've seen it with trump around ukraine, but it's happening on the israeli side as well, and you just have this shift in american politics going on at the moment. >> i think it's -- i think it's exactly what you put your finger on, a generational change. we're now evolving into the 21st century in a way that a lot of folks still are holding onto 20th century thinking about geopolitical relationships, and outcomes, and there's a generation of americans and israelis and jordanians and iranians who are having a different view of this world because what they recognize a lot sooner than perhaps us at the end of the baby boom generation -- >> i'm not in the baby boom generation. >> he's a gen x-er. let's claim it for gen x. >> i'm sorry. i'm a gen x-er. >> you're a boomer? >> i'm a gen x survivor. >> they keep moving it. do you want to know when you are a gen x-er? the test is if you went to see "the big chill" and you sat in the movie theater and said, i hate all of these people, that's how you know and you're, like, thank god i wasn't a part of that pretentious -- >> i'll own the space by myself. i'll own the tail end of the baby boomers by myself, but unlike our generation, this emerging generation does not take to heart or just hold steadfast to the old rules. >> what are the old rules? >> well, the old rules are exactly, you know, all things israel all the time. they're always right about everything, and we're going to -- >> what about ukraine? >> the same thing. >> it's not the same thing. you look at what's happened recently -- but history -- history has a way of letting people know that the world has not moved on, that we are still stuck in the old rules like for instance if the united states -- let me finish please. let me finish. >> i didn't finish my point. >> but it's my show. let me finish my point. >> all right, go ahead. >> let me finish my point so you can finish your point. we leave iraq. isis forms. >> yep. >> we have to go back to iraq, and it's even uglier. we leave afghanistan. all hell breaks loose. those old rules happened. we leave -- we stop supporting ukraine -- >> yep. >> hell breaks loose there, and then it happens in taiwan. the only rules are the new rules, man. >> okay. so you made a point there, but what i'm telling you is that's not a point that's accepted by the folks who stood up at the dnc. it's not a point that's accepted by the israelis necessarily on the ground in israel right now. i get what you are saying. i'm not disagreeing with your point. i'm putting on the table what's out there that's happening realtime and why it somewhat explains the attitudes that you are seeing popping up in polls. now you may not like it generationally speaking, but you have to understand how they're looking at the world. they're not looking at it the way you did, and seeing the outcomes the way you did. >> it's history. history teaches, you know, and soviet union falls. what happens? the russians try to encroach on ukraine, right? there's trouble in the middle east. now there's -- we see an existential threat on israel. we're coming back to foundational questions. i think the new generation has a lot of generational questions about what's happening, and they're testing all of that. they're also learning a lot of things about foreign policy on tiktok with zero context. >> oh my god. no context. >> and the question is, when they learn the context, then where are they going to be? is it, you know, history does seem to be just -- we keep falling back. >> abraham lincoln said we cannot escape history, and that's the only point i'm making. they can do their little tiktok videos all they want. i'm not worried about it because we all know how this story ends because this is how the story always ends. i do think though, that it's an awful lot to ask americans, and to ask the british and the french and our allies across europe to absorb all they are absorbing with ukraine year after year after year, and this talk of, oh, we're going to keep doing this for five more years. we don't care -- no, we're not. we're just not, and then on top of that, then they have to absorb what's going on in israel? i think they have been steadfast. our allies have been steadfast. that's asking an awful lot of people not directly impacted by this war. >> well, the bottom line is that the u.s. right now is -- still has the history, the inclinations of a global power, but it doesn't have the political ability to deliver, and i think that opens up a more -- a gap that young people sense. >> exactly. >> like biden says, we're going to be there as long as it takes in ukraine which is something he's been saying, but we might not even in a meaningful way to be able to continue to provide aid beyond next week. the pentagon spokesperson was quoted as saying there's only $1 billion left. look at our congress. look at how dysfunctional that is. a new speaker has been elected. we don't know much about his foreign policy except he's voted against all of the aid for ukraine. >> right. >> so, you know, there's a gap between our aspirations and because of our internal divisions, our abilities, but just on the history -- >> this week though, it's extraordinary what we've done with our alies with ukraine. >> yeah. >> russia has just been defanged. their military has been set back 30 years. their economy has been shattered. we've delivered already there, haven't we? >> i think the u.s. has mounted an extraordinary effort. the question is, how long to your point -- is how long is there a political consensus in the u.s. and in other western countries? i was just in germany for the week, and there is, you know, the rise of skeptical far right there. the afd, the extreme far-right party is now the second largest party in germany. that is actually more of a pro-russian group. it's sort of trumpism on steroids in some ways. >> right. >> there, and so i think the fraying of these societies from within is part of what we're seeing here and the consensus on things that we thought there was a consensus on. >> susan glasser, thank you so much. it's great to have you here in person. >> love it. thank you. >> sorry for the chaos. >> no, i love it. i love it. >> it's not a bug. it's a feature. we have more just ahead on how much of an obstacle prime minister netanyahu might be for the future. our third hour continues right now. the long-awaited ethics report on santos came out today. investigators found what they called substantial evidence of criminal wrongdoing, and the report claims among other things, santos used campaign funds on personal items like sephora cosmetics, trips to atlantic city, and even onlyfans. [ laughter ] turns out they don't sell fans at all. the name of the site is very misleading, but -- >> republican congressman george santos providing an awful lot of material for the late night shows. we'll go through a very damning ethics report. that was just the tip of the i guess -- iceberg there from jimmy kimmel. we'll see if he can talk about that in a minute. we'll also have the latest from the middle east. israel says it has more evidence hamas is operating out of a hospital in gaza. it comes as the idf recovered the body of a hostage near that facility. and we will recap another diplomatic day on the west coast for president biden where he met with the leaders of south korea and japan. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, november 17th. we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. we have katty kay, former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele, and assistant managing editor and chief for "the new york times," elizabeth miller. as israelis continue to search gaza's main hospital, israeli defense forces released this video of what they say is an operational tunnel shaft. they also say they have found hamas weapons there. nbc news cannot independently verify those claims but we have been able to verify the location is just outside the hospital building. israel says there have been no casualties since its raid began on wednesday. the hospital had to shut down over the weekend due to lack of fuel and supplies. still hundreds of patients are inside and need medical care. the fuel shortage caused internet and phone services to collapse across the gaza strip. the breakdown of communications network which is crucial for coordinating and deliveries will keep the united nations from getting aid into that territory today. so joe, the idf says -- the israeli government, evidence that hamas was working out of that hospital and obviously it would be great if hamas would use some of its fuel. it has big reserves of it, to keep that hospital running. >> no doubt about it. the front page of "the new york times" talking about israel coming through the gaza hospital for evidence of hamas using that hospitals. what did "the times" find? >> "the times," our international editor went on a tour of the hospital with idf forces and they saw a dark shaft that seemed to be leading underground, but you couldn't -- the israeli forces didn't want to go into it for fear of the booby traps and phil and patrick reported that it seemed to go underground but they couldn't go into it so they couldn't completely verify the claims they were tunnels. we don't know from our sources from intelligence gathering they say there are tunnels underneath that hospital, and the administration says these are -- our own intelligence sources and not the israelis. >> katty, this is where the fight goes now. this is where the battle goes, where you're going to have israeli troops eventually having to lower themselves into shafts trying to figure out how to work through the tunnel that works not only to seek out hamas, but obviously to look for the hostages. >> yeah. there are people in this world that said this is to study warfare in tunnels specifically. there are academics who study this, and it will be useful. i've spoken to a couple of them, but it's incredibly difficult. it's due in part to what elizabeth said, that these are boob trapped and there are could be hostages in there. we have had the perception over the last few years that the israeli military and the israeli intelligence services were almost invincible. they had this reputation for being so powerful, and so all-knowing, and the events of october the 7th revealed certainly that the intelligence was not invincible, and now the israeli military is going to be tested in a way that is very difficult for any military, and this puts person against person, and israeli military forces have not been training very extensively over the last few years in urban combat. they haven't been doing simulations of tunnel raids in big number for a long time. >> it's extraordinary. >> this is difficult. it's not easy. >> isn't it extraordinary? this is. this is what the united states learned how to do over 20 years, leading up to mosul. >> mm-hmm. >> where we had to guide warfare, you know, street by street, building by building, room by room, and it's extraordinarily difficult, but again, as katty said, here you have the israelis who used to, you know, know how to do this. what's it say that netanyahu was so busy taking the fight? >> absolutely, yeah. >> the supreme court and the rule of law, that they stopped focusing on their main enemy. they stopped focusing in every way. they stopped focusing on the enemy in gaza, and instead was obsessing over allowing extremists to settle in the west bank. in every single way they have left the israeli people vulnerable, and it's not like we started hearing this on october 8th. i started hearing from people in israel throughout the year that the secular -- the secular israelis who had been the backbone of defending the nation were being pushed out, and it was extremists -- religious extremists who really didn't give a damn about things like the military or, you know, mosul. >> i think, joe, the points that both you and katty raise speak to the idea that you have a situation where the politics overwhelms the process and the information, and that becomes the way in which things are dictated, and outcomes are determined and so you lose -- you lose sight of the mission because you're concerned about the politics, and you just referenced, you know, what netanyahu's going to through domestically. meanwhile, you have a policy in which he does not want to engage on the two-step -- two-state solution. he takes that off the table. so there is no intelligence gathering with respect to, okay. so what happens? what's going to happen -- when you take that off the table and you have this concentration -- >> with all due respect, that's not his to take off the table. israel is there because of us right now. it's not his to take -- he's the one who put israel in this place. >> i'm just saying. >> and we're the ones that are going to keep israel fighting, going to continue to support them. we have every right to tell netanyahu and anybody else that if you want our support, if you want our continued support, you're going to take care of the west bank. >> do we? we didn't. >> biden has started to say -- he's told him to protect palestinians on the west bank. >> that's now, joe. i'm talking about before now. before we got to october 7th. >> oh, of course, not. >> the israeli policy was not to engage on two-state -- >> i'm agreeing with you. i'm talking about now. >> okay. >> now it's -- i don't know how much the israelis and netanyahu are actually listening to the biden administration. >> right. >> i mean, the administration was pushing very hard to delay the invasion, and it delayed somewhat, but the israelis are not taking the advice the u.s. is giving at all. now what we're stuck with is pulling back and saying, well, they have the right to defend themselves. they have a moral obligation to defend themselves, but they have got to -- they have got to watch out for civilian casualties and now we have 11,000 palestinians dead in gaza if we believe the health minministry. >> whose number is that? >> those are the health ministry numbers so we don't know for sure. >> the hamas numbers. >> yeah. >> even last night on american television, he was pressed on if he would support a two-state solution given everything that's happened and given what's going on in gaza. he would not. he still wouldn't go there. he's standing in the way of the only thing that could lead to some sort of silver lining out of this horror that's happening in gaza. >> can you imagine a worst face for israel right now than netanyahu's? everybody that sees him on the screen except those working in his cabinet understand, willie, that every step he takes is a move to preserve himself politically. everyone knows he's the guy that let israel down. he's the guy that allowed october 7th to happen. he's the guy that for years was so focused on undermining the rule of law in israel that he actually compromised the forces there, so who says that? who says that? not some guy in washington, d.c. that's what the israelis say, and if the israelis say it, imagine how horrible it is across the rest of the world. the question is, at what point does he leave and allow israel to have a new start so everything they do is not looked at through a lens of suspicion? >> and polling support is what you said. israelis are united without question because they came under attack on october 7th, but they're not united around netanyahu. they're united around their nation, and jonathan lemire, to the question of the president and what he can do here, he does have some levers to pull. he does have some weight to throw around here because of united states' support of rare. what is your sense of the balancing act he's been pulling for more than a month now which is unequivocal public support and private pressure on prime minister netanyahu on the way he's prosecuting the war, and on the way he's behaving in the west bank? >> that was the white house's plan from the beginning. president biden would hug netanyahu close right at the start of this, on his trip to israel, but also to create that space for him to chide and push if needed and those pushes have picked up in pace. >> it doesn't look like he's enjoying that hug. >> no. you can see his facial expression how he feels about that. >> he's, like, seriously? do i have to do this? my god. okay. >> it is always carefully -- it's always carefully said these two men have known each other for a long time. it's never been added that they liked each other. president biden has not been a big fan of prime minister netanyahu for decades. >> that was not the hug, like, when harry -- if we go back to that picture, it was not end of "when harry met sally". >> "casablanca" and "when harry met sally". >> interesting movie choice here. >> as we go into the christmas season and we're talking about middle east peace, we're going to tackle the second most controversial question of our time and that is, whether "love actually" is the greatest movie ever or pure, unadulterated sap. >> so let's get back to this. >> i'm a "love actually" fan, but go ahead. >> i'll take the other side of that. >> of course, you will. >> let's get back -- >> there will be no later for. jonathan lemire, thank you so much. incredible. go ahead. go ahead. >> so back to -- >> back on track. >> thank god. back to what's happening in the middle east. we've heard the administration still unequivocally saying israel has a right to defends itself, but the worry has grown. the white house is already plotting for, considering a post-bb israel. they see the numbers and how unpopular he is. the opposition leader has called for netanyahu to step aside. there's no expectation it will happen immediately. there's a sense he will be allowed to steer this first phase of the war, but as the civilian casualties mount, and you're right. we can't take hamas' numbers precisely right, but there's a sense those numbers are high, that they understand this is a difficult situation for the u.s., you know, to keep fully backing israel in every phase of the war. they're hoping they'll slow down. they're hoping this will remain a targeted search, but there is some frustration with the deal. there's that temporary pause deal to let the hostages out which was seemingly close a few days ago. now joe it seems further apart. >> right, and there's some independent -- some independent numbers that are close i think to the numbers that elisabeth, you were talking about. the united nations has taken a guess at it. the united states government has taken a guess at it. we don't know exactly. >> they're bad. it's very disturbing. >> very bad and very disturbing, and michael, just getting back to the two-state solution, there was this belief during the abraham accords, and i thought it was cynical at the time that israel could make peace with the uae. >> right. >> israel could make peace with the saudis. >> absolutely right. >> israel could make peace with bahrain. israel could make peace with everybody and just pretend the palestinians weren't there. we said it at the time. >> right. >> it's, like, you think you can work around -- i said this to people in the trump administration. you think it can work around the palestinians? they're not going anywhere, and it underlined two things. one, that the israelis were cynical and were doing everything they could to ignore the palestinians' plight, and the second thing is it's not really reported just how much -- just how much the palestinians' neighbors just detest them. they have no use for them, haven't had any use for them for a really long time. they don't want them in their country, and they're willing to actually team up -- these nations team up with israel. >> right. >> and at the expense of the palestinians and this has blown up for the entire region and now they're paying in jordan. they're paying in egypt. they're paying in saudi arabia, again, for not tackling this issue head-on, and all i'm saying is, when we get through this first phase, however long that next month or so -- >> right. >> and netanyahu's moved aside, the united states just has to say, yes. we support your right to defend yourself, to destroy hamas, but we also are going to demand the other end of that is it's not going to be easy to do now, but at some point, you've got to move to a two-state solution and take care of the chaos that's going on in the west bank. >> i think you're right about that. i think in the end, so we're talking in a post-netanyahu israel up. you're going to have emerge -- as presumably was reported, you know, the opposition was beginning to position. you're going to have a momentum or an energy behind that. the work in the u.s. won't be necessarily as difficult -- >> as it was. >> as it otherwise would be it which is a good thing for u.s. policy, but more to the point of what you are making, the powers in the region will have a greater incentive on the heels of all of this now to get behind that two-state solution in a way that before october 7th they were disinclined to do for their own particular reasons. >> that is the one thing that's going to come out of this, people hope, that basically this is the only viable solution out of this mess is a two-state solution, and, you know, this has been discussed over the past month, that this is the one thing that will come out of this disaster is that this is the only way forward, and increasingly people will see that in the middle east. interestingly, "the times" had an interesting interview with hamas leaders a week or so ago, and they basically were feeling so -- so isolated in the region, and they launched this attack as kind of a last resort because they felt completely abandoned by all -- everybody else and realized that this was the last thing they could do. >> and, you know, american politics is moving this way too. even before the october the 7th attack, gallup poll earlier this year, that amongst democrats there was more sympathy for palestinians than there was for israel. since the attack, 60% of people under 30 in this country say that america shouldn't be arming israel in the way that it is at the moment, and that's a shift taking place in american politics that i think if you had a two-state solution that was actually viable with a leader in israel that actually seemed to be doing something for palestinians, not just constantly against them, that could actually help american -- it could help the white house too because there's pressure building in this country too. >> like osama bin laden when the towers fell, hamas has been victim to catastrophic success. as the saying goes, and they left israel, its allies. even the arab nations with no -- no alternative. >> they move away from them. >> they move towards a future solution, and that means for sunni-arab nations they can no longer ignore the palestinians' plight and they have to work along the israel and the united states and everybody else to move towards a two-state solution. it might be help if israel stops the illegal settlements because every illegal settlement they set up at this point makes the entire process that much uglier down the road and they have been doing that for years now. when we come back, a follow-up on yesterday's conversation about how -- i don't know why, but my old party just loves to hate the united states of america. you know, it used to be we would raise flags and sing "proud to be americans." we would go, america is the greatest country in the world, hell yeah. now donald trump's constantly trashing the united states of america, constantly trashing the military, constantly trashing our law enforcement officers and intel community, and we've got a speaker that says the united states is depraved, sort of a sodom and gamora, and jesus is coming for us. how do you rule a country you think so little of? we'll talk about that when we return on this happy, happy friday. t when we return on this happy, happy friday with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. 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( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. and wake up rejuvenated. with purple's new mattresses- fall asleep 20% faster have less aches and pains and sleep uninterrupted. right now save up to $900 off mattress sets during purple's black friday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you today. it's not just designed to look good. it's built to command attention. purple's black friday sale. it's not just a comfortable interior. it's a quiet refuge. ♪ ♪ they're not just headlights. they light the way forward. the fully electric audi q8 e-tron. ♪ ♪ a new report by "rolling stone" looks into house speaker mike johnson's views on american culture, which he calls, quote, dark and depraved. in an october prayer call just last month with the world prayer network, weeks before he became speaker of the house, johnson talked about an america facing a civilizational moment. >> the only question is, is god going to allow our nation to enter a time of judgment for our collective sins which his mercy and grace have held back for some time, or is he going to give us one more chance to restore the foundations and return to him? we will not be able to do it without the lord's help because there's so -- the flesh is, and the mistrust and the sin and everything is so great here that we -- this is going to have to bring people to their knees, and look. i believe god is about to do something. >> do you have time to answer the question or any anything more about the issue of, this could be a time of judgment for america? >> well, i mean, i don't -- i would be -- i'm saying i preach to the choir on this zoom call or maybe the honor choir of the state we're in. this is the slowest in the history of our nation. the culture is so dark and depraved that it almost seems irredeemable at this point. the church attendance in america dropped below 50% for the first time in our history since they began to measure the data 60 years ago, and the number of people who do not believe in absolute truth is now above the majority for the first time. so 1 in 3 teen girls contemplated suicide last year. 1 in 4 students identified as something other than straight. we're losing the country. >> where to begin there, joe? there's so much. >> good question. >> irredeemable, dark and depraved. let's lift out of the sub text. what he's talking about here is that we have gay people in america and he said, 1 in 4 high school students say that they are something other than straight is the way he put it. so he's very worried about that, but also i just have to say, joe, he said the faith in our institutions and doubt about absolute truth -- this is the man who helped to lead the attempted coup against the united states government and overturn the 2020 election. he's very worried about faith in institutions. >> willie, he ran the big lie on capitol hill. preach about that, jimmy swagger. right? and then go to your motel room and start, like, faxing around, you know, conspiratorial documents. it is the hypocrisy. there's so much hypocrisy to go back to, whether it's jim and tammy fay baker. whether it's jimmy swaggard. there's so much hypocrisy about a guy, again, trying to undermine our institutions. the guy who is trying -- who led in the house of representatives, he attempted to undermine the united states constitution, an american presidential election and an attempt to basically end american democracy, and then suddenly, suddenly this great prophet -- this jeremiah of our times went quietly silent as mobs rushed the people's house where he was, and battered and abused police officers with american flags that our soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen took into battle over 200 years to defend this country. the hypocrisy, the hypocrisy in the words of -- i think it was homer simpson when somebody accidentally threw communion water in his eyes. it burns. it burns. there's so much hypocrisy here. that's part one. part two is, i just have to go back to the question i asked yesterday. i'm serious. why do republicans hate america so much? i -- i'm an evangelical. i believe whether people think it's crazy or not -- i believe, you know, what the gospels say. i believe what the sermon says. i believe in jesus. we're all sinners. we're all fallen, right? >> yep. >> but i'm very optimistic about america's future because i see the good in people. i see the good in this country. it's interesting. he's, like, trying to dig statistics about, i don't know, drag queen shows or something. >> yeah. >> what i see is that not is long ago, teenage pregnancy, at an all-time low in america. that's something we always heard about in the southern baptist church growing up. child poverty over the last year, at, like, a 50, 60-year low. our economy doing well. a lot of things going in the right direction, but i've got to say, if he's worried about pews emptying out, talk to young people and so many will tell us, and russell morris talked about this with christiane today, they're emptying out because they don't want to go to a church where preachers worship donald trump instead of jesus christ. >> yeah. so he represents the fullness of the emergence of the -- the christian nationalism that sees america through a very different gospel than the one that the man they profess to follow, jesus, preached. in fact, as reported about a month or so ago where you have now evangelicals thinking that, well, we can't follow the teachings of jesus because they're too woke. >> right. what about -- >> when jesus becomes woke for guys like him -- >> woke and weak. >> woke and weak. >> and don jr. and other people around trump said, oh, the whole thing about turning the other cheek, that's too weak. >> that's too weak. >> that doesn't work anymore. >> didn't they amend the bible in some districts in texas? >> when you start banning the bible and things like that. when you start reimagiing the teachings of christ in your image or in the image of donald trump -- >> donald trump. >> -- you have a problem. the problem with the speaker from where i'm sitting, it harkens me back to the concerns that people had about catholics in this country for a long, long time, getting them close to power, and, you know, their tendenies would infiltrate the government. what is this? what is this? i was saying the speaker -- before you open your mouth the next time, could you go and read what the founder said about religion number one in this country? as they were forming it, but number two, go read their stories, and understand what kind of men they were. >> right. >> they weren't the kind of christians that you think they were, that you make them out to be. many of them, they were deists, some were atheists and yet they created this thing that you are trying to reimagine in a way that even they tried very hard to avoid. >> yeah. >> and so i think to your point about the pews in the churches, the fact is no one, whether you are 30 years old or 90 years old want to hear that from a political leader. coming up, we're going to turn the page a bit. nikki haley appears to be benefitting from a shrinking field in a republican presidential primary, keeping up again in another poll. we'll tell you about the new donors she's also picking up and show you where she stands in that latest poll out of new hampshire. 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one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. kinda like me. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. nikki haley is picking up more campaign cash and support in the race for the republican presidential nomination. some donors who previously backed south carolina senator tim scott are shifting to haley after his exit from the race this week. meanwhile, billionaire hedge fund ceo ken griffin who gave miions to ron desantis for his campaigns for florida governor told bloomberg tv this week he is, quote, actively contemplating backing haley. a new poll by cnn and the university of new hampshire released yesterday shows donald trump with a commanding lead in the state at 42%, but haley, the clear second choice at 20 percentage points, six points higher than chris christie. so joe, nikki haley has had a couple of good debates, particularly that last one with just five of them on the stage. she certainly shined. i guess the question is does any of it matter given the margins donald trump has? >> i mean, you know, 42% matters, and it matters in the fact that -- imagine barack obama was running to be democratic nominee even this year in an open field. would he be getting 42%? no, he'd be getting 85%, 90%. there's still a lot of doubt in the republican party about donald trump, and nikki haley at 20% is pretty good. i will say if a donor, and i'm sure it would be the same with me. if a donor said they were actively contemplaing supporting me and i was sitting across the table, i would do this, okay. i'll be here. i'm not -- you keep actively contemplating. >> write the check. >> but i think they're going that way. i mean -- >> look. >> with chris christie or desantis out of the race, this race becomes a ten-point -- >> but they haven't, and here's the thing. you drop out -- in an environment like this, joe, the politics dictates in my view, you drop out, you endorse. >> right. >> so if you are tim scott, you drop out and you say, i'm dropping out and supporting nikki or i'm dropping out and supporting christie. you cannot in this campaign with donald trump at 42% in new hampshire and much more in other jurisdictions and the locations, you cannot hedge your bets with the donors, the political actors. you have to be precise, and you have to be very clear. it's the only way you whittle this thing down. >> right. >> once it set itself up to be a trump/haley battle, but you still have men on the stage who won't give that air and let it breathe. you have donors who won't let it breathe, actively contemplating is not actively doing, and so the reality of it is, none of this matters until they make it matter. >> right. >> it's nice headlines and it looks good. she's sitting at 20%, but at the end of the day, donald trump still is the nominee of the party until they prove otherwise, and they're not proving otherwise. >> here's my question about the republican party. all the polls show that she does better against biden than trump does. >> easily. >> all of them. she's done very well on those debates, you know, she's done something that's very hard for women candidates to do. she's -- she's put down ramaswamy in a way that's very cutting, but amusing. she doesn't offend people, right? >> right. >> so what is with the republican -- your party that they don't see this? trump will be facing four trials next year in the middle of the cane. >> they don't care about that. what they care about is what trump wants, what trump's doing. that's their avatar. that's where they -- they feel their retribution comes. he's the one who's going to make it right, the way they want it. >> nikki haley doesn't do that. in their view, nikki haley, yeah, she was in the administration but she's not all the way trump. chris christie certainly is not. the reality for a lot of his supporters is, why would i go with light when i've got the real deal? >> even if light might be the president? >> purism over practicality. >> there's purism over practicality, but at the core of this is is something that's clearly been reported. they genuinely believe this time next year donald trump will be getting ready to go back in the white house. >> they keep losing, and they keep losing with donald trump, and they've lost every year since 2017 consecutively. let's bring in sam stein, the white house editor for politico. >> thank you. >> they keep losing with donald trump for some, better than winning with somebody else, but nikki haley does clearly outshine donald trump in the general election. >> right. >> i will say though, sitting at 20%, rising up from what? maybe 7% -- 6%, 7%, 8% a month ago? and being there in november, i would take that any day. of the week. >> yeah, there's a path here right? it was invisible a couple of weeks ago, but you can see it starting to form. i don't think it's a particularly great path, but it's there, and if you add up the three non-trump candidates, that's 43%. trump is at 42%. it doesn't work that way, right? it's not like every vote who moves on from ron desantis is going to back nikki haley. they'll probably back donald trump, but there is a path. now i will say the electability argument, that's a powerful one, but obviously republican voters don't buy it. >> that's true. >> you mention the trials. >> wait, wait. they're telling pollsters they don't care. >> right. >> i'm just telling you -- i got a lot of family members and friends who were all in for trump in '16 and '20 who loathe him now. >> right. >> i'm not so sure they'll admit that to a pollster calling him up. >> that might be the case. i've thought about that too whether these polls kind of overstate things for him. i will say, what we were able to report on the trials if you think it actually plays into this a little bit here, is it's not they're just ignoring the trials. the trials are actively helping trump in the primary. primary voters rally around him because they think he's being targeted by his political opponents, and they feel empathy for him. we know this because the club for growth conservative group that was opposed to trump -- >> please don't call them the conservative group. they used to be a conservative group. a formerly conservative group that used to worry about balancing the budget and debt. >> for the purposes of this conversation, a group -- [ laughter ] -- that goes to trump. their allied pac ran focus group ads going after him on his legal troubles, and the most fascinating thing was they all back fired. four of the ads they put together, three of them increased support for trump. the fourth one kept things normal, and that's why you don't see other candidates using him. >> >> he successfully made those trials about him. >> yes. >> but polls show if convicted, that changes things considerably. >> oh yeah. >> in the primary -- >> the republicans have a very high, high bar for turning on trump. okay. if he's only indicted for stealing nuclear secrets from the united states of america, we're good with that. if he's convicted, eh, maybe. so jonathan lemire, it is interesting that what sam was talking about, it is true that donald trump was sort of in a shaky position until the manhattan indictment came down. then his numbers starting to go up. they've continued to go up with every passing indictment. it is fascinating that you look now, maybe starting to ebb a little bit. i'm curious if there are no more indictments between now and new hampshire, that's a big if, this race could get close. >> trump was really wounded after the 2022 midterms, where there was real talk of the party moving away from him. desantis had this huge win in florida. the trump advisors tried to get him to hold off his announcement a week after the midterms because so many of these candidates lost and there was real momentum against trump there. now he needs to run to stay out of jail. what he didn't count on and what he's done effectively is transfer the prosecutions about him and make it about his supporters. it's this deep state witch hunt. you're right though, we shouldn't overstate where this race stands right now. nikki haley has clearly become the best alternative. desantis still seems deeply damaged. polling suggests that for so many of these candidates, their second-place choice is trump. they may go to trump if desantis bows out or christie can't make it to primary day. this is still donald trump's race to lose, no question. then we see when the trials start. at the moment there is the belief that the january 6th federal election trial will start and conclude and maybe even getting to sentencing before election day. that wouldn't happen before the primaries, but that would have to factor in any general election calculation. >> we really do see a divided republican party here with, again, a former president getting 40%, a guy who's supposed to be running this massive movement nationwide. new hampshire is an extraordinarily important state in the general election. it has been since 2000. joe biden only has a 37% approval rate there. still beats donald trump by five percentage points in new hampshire. >> we just don't know what the political landscape might look like in half a year, let alone three months. there are clear vulnerabilities. we see time and time again age questions, enthusiasm, stamina among the base. we see it personified in protests outside the dnc. that doesn't mean things won't change. the big variable for me is not just can biden shore up his base, can he effectively find a retort to this issue of age, which isn't going away obviously. it's what happens with these third-party candidates especially in a state like new hampshire. a huge independent streak up there, big libertarian streak up there. does somebody like robert f. kennedy jr. really come in and pull 5% i don't know. cornell west is making big moves in michigan to the arab populations there. in these states, we're talking about margins of victory that could be in the tens of thousands. that is a game changer. >> you never know which way the independent candidates are going to cut. >> you don't know. if rfk jr. takes more from trump potentially given his stance on anti-vaccine and just his very extreme positions, it's just hard to tell. cornell west obviously takes more from biden. trump was praising rfk jr. as this great guy and all of a sudden he turns on him. it looks like he's going to take votes away from him. >> it's amazing donald trump turning on somebody he once praised. never seen that before. [ laughter ] >> who could have seen that coming? thank you both. have a great weekend. still ahead, the latest from president biden's trip to california, where he will meet today with the leader of mexico. we'll speak with the chief white house correspondent for the "new york times," peter baker. e "new york times," peter baker when someone tells you who they are, believe them. stealing their basic supplies. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. only unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans come with the ucard — one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. what if we need to see a doctor away from home? we got you — with medicare advantage's largest national provider network. only from unitedhealthcare. only sleep number smart beds let you each choose your individual firmness and comfort. your sleep number setting. largest national provider network. and actively cools and warms up to 13 degrees on either side. and now, save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed, plus special financing. shop for a limited time. only at sleep number. there are some things that go better... together. burger and fries... soup and salad. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together can help you make smarter decisions. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected. coming up, the house ethics committee just issued a scathing report on congressman george santos, who now says he will not run for reelection. we'll talk with the top democrat on that committee when we come back. e top democrat on that committee when we come back ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. [limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ we had no terror during my administration. the only terror we had was nancy pelosi, who's a crazed lunatic. she's a lunatic. she is a crazed lunatic. what the hell was going on with her husband? let's not ask. let's not ask. i'll withdraw that statement. by the way, she's got a wall around her house. obviously in that case it didn't work very well. >> yeah. laugh about 82-year-old man almost being beaten to death by a hammer in his skull. laugh about that, donald. you may just leave it there. we're not going to leave it there. you're a hateful, hateful man. again, this is fascism. it's just pure fascism. it's using violent rhetoric, whether you're talking about storming the capitol, whether you want to go back all the way to 2016 and say, you know what, you beat up people that are against me and i'll pay your defense fine. again, mocking and ridiculing nancy pelosi's husband and saying that nancy pelosi is a crazed lunatic. again, this is how twisted things are. you know, some would say the lunatic is the guy that says jesus is coming to destroy america a couple weeks before he becomes speaker of the house and says that he lives by what jesus says, the bible says when he runs the big lie, and that's how he gets to power. again, the hatefulness -- and the question is, who are the people cheering when donald trump is joking about an 82-year-old man almost being killed by an attacker who actually was spitting out some of donald trump's maga extremism? >> the problem is, there's way too many of them. it's not donald trump, obviously, who's going to go to the home of nancy pelosi or any other leader and threaten them with violence and bring a hammer into their home. it's people who listen to them and see and echo that rhetoric online. there's the most serious versions of this, what we saw with paul pelosi and judges and d.a.'s and elected officials across the country. even we saw the absurdity on the floor this week and the chase down the hall with members of congress, this kind of echo and allowing the threat of violence of altercations, that is part of the trump legacy. >> you look at the rise of violence. you look at mussolini who stormed government buildings. he talked about violence all the time. he and hitler talked about vermin. i've really had enough of professors going, you know, it's really too early to call this fascism. no. it's way too late, actually, when you have a guy that not only talks about vermin and promotes violence against the capitol, talks about beating up political opponents, salutes a congressman that beats up a reporter for asking a question about health care reform. >> it's feeling a little vimar out there. >> yeah. the connections are there. >> i'm just going to note this comes on the same week where also elon musk cheers on anti-semitic theories, when charlie kirk and tucker carlson both blame the jews for ushering in this invasion at the southern border. these are kind of some of the most pernicious conspiracy theories in the history of the modern world, and they have been imposed on the jewish people by donald trump's supporters. it's all now adjacent to this language about violence and this rhetoric about subhuman people. these are tropes, these are things we've seen before. >> a weird toxic mix of people on the far right, the trump right, donald trump himself praising hezbollah, and then people on the extreme left that have in the past championed lgbtq rights, in the past championed progressive causes, now warmly embracing osama bin laden and hamas on tiktok, two people who would kill somebody. >> i was briefly bureau chief of the "new york times" and i went to gaza at one point because hamas was committing the execution of one of their commanders for being gay. it's a remarkable time when we're talking about these issues here in america. we never would have imagined that. >> a letter to america from osama bin laden as a former obama administration official said, thank god genx doesn't have the attention span to read mein kampf. from hamas to osama bin laden, it's crazed. >> so much of it is like an incentive structure in our politics. donald trump didn't create one. he changed it quite a bit. so it's the violence, it is the kinds of things people say. and then the kids on tiktok talking about this and saying that, you know, for them osama bin laden may have had a point here, which he for sure did not. their incentive structure is, one, some of these kids may not have believed that, but they get more eyes on them. on both sides of the aisle, it is in vogue to be against the government. >> by the way, it's the chinese communists who own tiktok. talk about big governments bigfooting and how incredible as we go into an election year -- >> they have biden and xi meeting in san francisco. who are they protesting by blocking the bridge? not xi, who has hundreds of thousands of uyghurs in concentration camps, but they're protesting biden. >> what trump unleashed was this sense of fear, which causes people to instantly go to the most hyperbolic reactions to everything. everything gets escalated to extreme levels. but also as a society, we're not able to express mild disagreements with one another over things where we may not see eye to eye. so everything ends up escalating to the highest level on both sides. >> and the ignorance on college campuses, the things they've been saying in defense of hamas. what about the ignorance of what peter just talked about? here you have the most repressive government in the world who maybe it's hundreds of thousands, maybe it's millions of uyghurs in concentration camps. you see what happened brand new brutally putting down protesters in hong kong. we could go down the list. a communist chinese regime that through the years has killed over 50 million of their own people and still going after uyghurs today. and these protesters aren't protesting the regime that's killed 50 million people through the years or have concentration camps today. they're protesting joe biden. that's ignorance. >> well, there's a couple things that can be true at the same time, joe. this is the challenge also for people who are legitimately horrified with the civilian casualties and the loss of life they're seeing in gaza. a lot of that is generational. there is a generational movement and view on the u.s. role in the world and the role of israel. that is true. at the same time, you have people who are echoing and resharing, because the incentive structure. there's no context on social media. there's a lack of understanding of history by a lot of people reposting these things. but you're incentivized to be part of the cool crowd by reposting from the river to the sea, which by the way, is an anti-semitic statement. there's also white nationalist groups taking advantage of some of these protests happening across the country. there is a generational, a racial movement of young people that are horrified by what they're seeing in gaza. there are also a lot of disinformation, echoing, language and things outside of historical context. that is also happening at the same time. it's hurting the generational movement. >> this generation aren't listening to the people on tv that used to have a lot more power and influence. they're talking to the other folks on tiktok that they have already trusted. the white house and politicians are always trying to use these trusted content creators. it happened during covid, it happens all the time. when i talk to young voters, they're always very anxious. when i'm anxious, i don't make decisions that make a lot of sense. that's something they're doing over and over again. this is after the pandemic when this entire world went through this global trauma that we haven't grappled with the way it's impacted how we think about everything. when i talk to my siblings who are in their early 20s, they are so worried about what the future of this country and world shapes out to be, they say and do things that don't coincide with common sense, that don't have any historical context. at the end of the day, if you push them on it, they don't fully believe, but they're grasping at straws to find something to hold onto. >> i've seen it on college campuses. it's just like trumpers. when confronted with historical context, they go, oh, well, we don't believe anything we read in the paper. it's like my friends and family members who say, oh, we don't believe anything that's written on newspapers. oh, where do you get your news? it's chinese religious cult websites. you can even show them that what they're reading comes from a chinese religious cult. they don't care, because the chinese religious cult gives them information that reenforces all of their preexisting prejudices. in this case, the historical context of jews, of the holocaust. your family went through it. so many families went through it. six million jews killed, only 15 million jews left on the face of the earth. again, the selective outrage only comes when palestinians are fighting israelis. when arabs slaughter palestinians, when arabs persecute palestinians, which they do, when hamas kills palestinians because maybe they want to make peace with israel, nobody's shocked by that. certainly nobody protesting the 500,000 arabs killed by assad. why is it only the jews that they say have no right to fight back? >> it's everything you're talking about. it's the historical illiterate and college campuses where their professors preach to them anti-colonialism and anti-power that essentially have no place for anti-semitism. there's really no place for anti-semitism. anti-semitism doesn't fit within any of the taxonomies. the nub of an anti-semitic conspiracy theory is not about jewish powerlessness. it's about jewish power. that explains the inertness college officials have shown. >> the ignorance among college students of what's happened in israel since 1948, it's stunning. they have no clue. they have no idea what's happened since 1948. we're talking about nancy pelosi's husband paul. the home intruder who brutall attacked paul pelosi was found guilty of all charges in federal court. he now faces up to life in prison and still faces multiple charges connected to the home invasion, including attempted murder. people love to say that nothing matters, nothing matters anymore. things do matter. this happened before the 2022 election and everybody was spreading rumors, even people in the media started to spread rumors. you had donald trump laughing about it. i really believed at the time that that violence drew people back to january 6th and reminded them the threat of maga extremism. donald trump's still laughing and people saying, i can't believe he's doing that and getting away with it. i have a feeling he's not. >> look, the intruder is echoing the language of january 6th. where's nancy, where's nancy? those were the echoes we heard in the halls of the capitol on january 6th as they were hunting down the speaker of the house and the vice president of the united states because they were concerned about the election that donald trump legitimately lost. he's trying to deflect blame for his rhetoric. it's not me inciting it. there's some other conspiracy. >> what happened that night, he says. what happened was a guy repeating maga talking points beat the hell out of an 82-year-old man with a hammer. today president biden is going to wrap up his trip to california. yesterday morning the president addressed the ceos who were in attendance and talked about the optics of the economy not lining up with the good data. >> more people in the united states are in the workforce today than at any time in american history. unemployment has been under 4% for 21 straight months. inflation has come down by 65%. we now have the lowest inflation rate of any advanced economy in the world. meanwhile, median household wealth has grown by 37% in real terms since before the pandemic. i acknowledge there's a disconnect between the numbers and how people feel about their place in the world right now. we can deal with the second part as well. we still have work to do, but our model for growing is delivering real results for all americans. >> eugene, we've got economic numbers that china would kill for, i mean, literally kill for. we're doing so much better than most in the world. and yet, why is it not getting through to the american people? >> because so much is about feeling. folks don't feel numbers. they feel how expensive gas was and is. they feel how expensive milk is. they feel how expensive eggs are. also, they're talking to people in their neighborhoods and people are saying, i remember when it was much cheaper, what the hell happened? that conversation is happening all the time. the moniker of bidenomics is not breaking through. you talk to democrats and they're begging the white house to stop using it. earlier this week my colleague scooped that some progressives went and showed the white house numbers on whether or not people felt like the economy worked. 7 out of 10 people said the economy wasn't getting better even after they were shown the numbers and data and the charts that show that the economy has shown extreme resilience. 7 out of 10 people said it wasn't getting better. >> also frustrating at the white house is that they have numbers that show 75% of americans are happy with where they are economically. >> yeah. the data doesn't always make sense. i can tell you from banging my head against the wall communicating about the economy from the white house for two presidents for many years. it is very difficult. you can't tell people how to feel about the economy. the challenge for the biden white house is they need to make up some ground on the economy in terms of how the american public feels. they're spending lots of money on paid media to do that. really the question is, should they actually be focusing on the contrast with trump and fascism and the threat he is? frank, you wrote a whole book about that. you know almost as much as i do about the biden universe. how are they thinking? >> i think that the story they can tell may not help convince people things are great, but it can blunt some of the trump appeal. one of biden's real achievements as president is that he's gone in a different direction from obama and clinton as it relates the management of the economy. he took a lot of things that trump talked about, whether it is trade policy, whether it's going after monopolies. >> he is an fdr democrat. after having these new democrats that hung out with wall street types and catered to wall street types. >> yeah. he's changed not just the mood music. he's actually changed the substance in a way that will be lasting for a generation. he set the terms for how the next president and the president after that will govern the economy. you look at something like trade unions. trump poses as the friend of the working person, but what he's done is he went and stood on a picket line. he's restored the prestige of trade unions. you look at something like monopoly, the cases against google and amazon. that is the story they should be telling, because it's real. >> i know this isn't breaking through. i don't know why it's not breaking through. that doesn't change the fact that it's the truth. so let me tell you the truth. if it doesn't break through, it doesn't break through, but you deserve to know the truth. trump's going to lie to you. i'm going to tell you the truth. >> he has been doing that for months now. it hasn't broken through. he will continue to do it. he probably ought to continue to do it. it reminds us of what made trump successful when he was successful. he was really good at selling a story. he's a great salesman in the sense that he told everybody it was the greatest ever. it wasn't. >> i always said, there are even people on msnbc. i would be walking past my tv screen and they were about to ask a question but they would preface it by saying, of course, this is the best economy ever. no! it's the seventh best since world war ii. jimmy carter had a higher gdp on average than donald trump pre-covid. let's not just give him a pass on covid. he lied about it through his teeth repeatedly and made a bad situation so much worse. so the covid economy is also on donald trump's shoulders. >> but he has sold it in a way that convinced not just people who liked donald trump, but even people who don't like donald trump. he set the debate on his terms. if he had today's economy, he would be saying it's the best economy ever. >> it's much easier to run an as the opponent on the economy than as the incumbent. >> now you're starting to see over the last week or so president biden and the campaign sending out things talking about donald trump, talking about what he would do if he would come back in office. the great reporting happening at the "new york times" about him gutting the government, what he would do about immigration when he would come back in office. that's what democrats want to see. talk about what you're going to do, but more importantly, let people know what the other guy is going to do. if it's trump and biden, it's going to be who do americans dislike the least. >> the "new york times," the "washington post," they've done great work on just how frightening donald trump's administration would be. thank you for being here. next we're going to go through damning reports on republican congressman george santos. ports on republican congressman george santos c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. see the best trolls movie yet. ha, ho, whoa! poppy, i'm your sister. my what? whoa. hey man, am i the only one without a long lost sibling? why do you think you're influential? >> i've never been asked that before. >> hi, you. >> good to see you. >> if you could attach the reed -- reader to a person, they'll follow that person anywhere. >> to walk through certain parts of the ballet. oh my gosh. >> deny thy father -- >> pretty damn good. >> i tell you what's more, when you miss the one you care for more than you miss new orleans. >> that's a look at katty's new bbc show aptly titled "initial influential with katty kay." that looks extraordinary. >> thank you. it's really great. you can find it on youtube as of today. with all of the news going on around the world in politics and around the world, i felt i needed and perhaps the audience needed something that was just a little bit more uplifting. i got to spend time with these extraordinary people, actors, chefs. i got to play romeo and juliet. i talked about losing religion with dr. fauci. that was interesting. i had these conversations where people can be a bit more personal and revealing of who they are. today it's wendal pierce. we were talking about his dad who's a world war ii veteran and what it means to be patriotic. >> that sounds so great. i'm so excited to see it. now, bring us back to the bad news. >> congressman george santos says he will not seek reelection next year, stating his family, quote, deserves better than to be under the gun from the press all the time, as if it's the press's fault. he posted those comments on social media yesterday after the house ethics committee released a damning report saying there's substantial evidence he violated federal laws including using campaign funds for personal purposes and filing false campaign reports. joining us is the ranking member of the house ethics committee. what are you republican colleagues saying to you about george santos in private? >> it's interesting, because the ethic committee is completely bipartisan, an equal number of democrats and republicans. obviously we have plenty of time to talk about this over the months. i'm pleased to report that at least the republicans on the committee are equally appalled with us about his conduct. frankly, i think all of us on the committee would have liked to have him out much sooner. but i really have to say it was an intensive investigation and mounds and mounds of evidence that was reviewed to put together that report. >> your republican counterpart is going to bring up privilege resolution to expel george santos when you all return in december. the last time there was a vote on expelling him, though, a number of democrats voted against that. do you think that's still going to be the case now that your report is out there? >> i don't believe it will be the case. actually, the chair of the committee, a republican, is bringing his resolution today. i've just learned he's not bringing it as a privileged resolution. a privileged resolution has to be brought up within two days. one wonders why he wouldn't bring it up as a privileged resolution. any other member can make it a privileged resolution. i do believe that democrats who voted against it, i've spoken with them and a couple republicans who voted against it. >> did they vote against it because they wanted to wait until the committee was finished with its work? >> some. some were concerned about due process and they wanted to see the report and what was contained in it in order to be convinced. >> there's been republicans who have actually spoken out against george santos, which i will say feels like a good sign. is your sense that any of them are also willing to speak out against, say, donald trump and others and their language that i would venture to say is more damaging than george santos? >> i think the people who are willing to speak out against donald trump have already done so and you're not going to see any more comments on that. george santos was easy to speak out against because his conduct was so outrageous and there was overwhelming evidence. >> no hope quite yet. >> let me ask you a pennsylvania question. >> sure. >> there have been a lot of calls for pennsylvania to do what florida does and other states do, which is count the votes early. by counting the votes early, when the polls close you have all of the mail-in ballots, everything done, everything counted. there were people saying before, including around this table, that because of pennsylvania, michigan and wisconsin's voting laws that republican legislatures wouldn't change that donald trump is going to be able to do exactly what he did. is pennsylvania fixing that, so like florida, when the polls close, we'll know by 9:00 at night who won the state of pennsylvania? >> it would be lovely if so. in pennsylvania our state legislature, much like congress, has a very narrow majority, although in pennsylvania the democrats have the majority. my understanding is they're working on it, but i don't think you're going to see it fixed before next election. >> why not? >> i don't know. i wish it would be. it's crazy. you wouldn't reveal what those votes are tallied, but the amount of time it is taking for election offices in every county to get done -- some counties are better than others. you're absolutely right, we should know by midnight on election day what the results are. >> pennsylvania is not the worst. in arizona and nevada they count two votes a day for like six months afterward. i've never seen anything like it. if state legislatures had done in pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan what people were asking them to do, 2020 wouldn't have happened. we would have known who the president of the united states was by 10:00 that night. >> i will say things have improved in pennsylvania since 2020, because the state legislature has given additional monies to voter offices to do certain improvements. so 2022 was not nearly as delayed as 2020. i'd like to think that we'll be done by, i don't know, 10:00 next november, but i don't know. we're having a lot of trouble getting consensus on changing, improving election laws in pennsylvania. >> we need to bring governor shapiro on this show. >> i'll give him a shoutout. he can get it done. he's a great governor. i hope he's able to get the legislature moving. >> let's hope so. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> stop having so much fun in the minority. we're onto you. it's a show every day, isn't it? >> it is. >> susan wild of pennsylvania, thank you so much. come back. coming up after the break, after more than three decades, formula one racing is returning to sin city. cnbc's sarah eisen brings us the business of f1 racing. we'll be right back with sarah. g we'll be right back with sarah ♪everything i do that's for my health is an accomplishment.♪ ♪concerns of getting screened faded away♪ ♪to my astonishment.♪ ♪my doc gave me a script i got it done without a delay.♪ ♪i screened with cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪i did it my way!♪ ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? 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[limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. premiering this sunday on msnbc is a fascinating new documentary that people are going to want to check out titled "periodical." it challenges long-held stigma surrounding menstruation and menopause. >> periods, hmm. >> i [ bleep ] hate having my periods. >> when i was growing up, we did not speak about it. >> i never had the period talk with my mom or my dad. >> i think women's bodies are political, so i think a period is part of that. >> it's just part of life. we have suppressed that knowledge and made it seem shameful. >> basically anything that happened with your period made you crazy. >> we're going to michigan to put pressure on lawmakers to repeal the michigan tampon tax. >> what would happen if men could menstruate? >> we tried a period cramp simulator. >> i had my first hot flash the other day. >> i was sick of keeping it secret. let's get rid of stigma. i always say, you know, closed for business, but open for pleasure. >> when you were introducing this, everybody thought we were talking about magazines or something like that. by you will remember, i think, because i think you and mika talked about it, she actually did an instagram post and an article on this. and it was extraordinary. it may have been of all the know your value things she did, had more women reaching out to her saying, nobody talks about this. i've been going through this alone. it is horrifying, it is terrifying, it is discombobulating. when she talked about it, it really -- because when she was writing it, i go, oh, what are you writing? i said you really want to do that? but it made a big difference. >> she still writes on a typewriter? >> a manual too. >> there's not been much actual medical research on this, because there haven't been enough until very recently women doctors involved in the medical side of research. there is a stigma around it. it's great when mika wrote about that. anyway "periodicals" is this sunday on nbc. it's streaming as well on peacock. head to knowyourvalue.com. turning to one of the most popular sports in the world, formula 1 racing. tomorrow night the starting light flashes at the las vegas grand prix. to go along with the big race, cnbc has a new documentary out titled "inside track, the business of formula 1." take a look. >> people are really excited about the sport and where it's going. >> the u.s. has gone crazy and has woken up to what formula 1 is. >> this is lewis' car. >> number 44. >> can you put a price on the car? >> it costs about $50 million to develop. >> i knew something was going on when my 17-year-old daughter started watching formula 1 kind of obsessively every day. >> that's perfect, because actually formula 1 says that is the fastest market for fans right now, is young women. that's why businesses are racing to get in. i want to start with some news from las vegas on this highly anticipated race. last night we had a little drama, a bump in the road, literally to start the race. last night was the practice sessions. they had to call off the first practice because of a drain cover that got released because of all the fast speeds and high pressure on the track. it was a mishap. they were later able to race in the middle of the night around 2:00 a.m. there's a lot of pressure. i bring this up because there has been so much hype and so much investment from formula 1's parent company liberty media on las vegas. they're spending more than any other promoter of any other race that they have on the calendar, and there are more than 20. it's an event almost single weekend. the stakes are high. it's supposed to bring in more than double the super bowl. it's been growing super fast thanks to netflix's "drive to survive" and adding more races in places like miami. the next test will be the qualifying round tonight. we'll see if this new track, which is very new. it's 3.8 miles. it goes directly through the las vegas strip. they close the strip at night. it's quite something. we'll see if they can get it to work well tonight. >> over the past 15 years soccer, premier league football has really gained massive following in the united states. it looks like this is the next sport. for the uninitiated, what did you learn about the sport, about the culture, about the business that surprised you the most? >> i think i learned just what an incredible business transformation this sport has gone through. so six years ago it was owned by bernie ecclestone, who was one of the team owners. it was a more sleepy motor sport for the purists. it's an engineering sport. it was popular in europe and south america. liberty media rethought everything when they bought it six years ago. the drivers weren't allowed to use social media before. now they do. lewis hamilton, who's the biggest star in formula 1, has three times the following of tom brady. they really opened it up. that's what made it take off. the other thing i learned is that the teams -- and we had great access to the teams -- their global businesses, the principals are ceos, they bring in sponsors, they have thousands of people on their staff. and they're increasingly profitable and they're getting high valuations in the billions of dollars now, something that was unthinkable a few years ago. >> it is all about these personaliies who are mega stars. first premier league, then formula 1. you think america is actually catching up with the rest of the world? >> one of these days. >> you can watch "inside track" tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on cnbc. thank you. it looks fantastic. >> thank you. coming up, a look at the new documentary featuring lady bird johnson in her own words. her own words liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. only pay for what you need. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ how's the chicken? the prawns are delicious. oh, i have a shellfish allergy. one prawn. very good. did i say chicken wrong? tired of people not listening to what you want? it's truffle season! ah that's okay... never enough truffles. how much are they? it's a lot. oh okay - i'm good, that - it's like a priceless piece of art. enjoy. or when they sell you what they want? yeah. the more we understand you, the better we can help you. that's what u.s. bank is for. huge relief. yeah... ♪ and then a secret service car and then our car streets are lined with people, lots and lots of children all smiling. we were rounding a curve going down a hill. suddenly, there was a shot, loud, report, a shot. and then two more. i heard over the radio system let's get out of here, and this man who was with us vaulted over the front seat on top of lyndon threw him to the floor and said get down. cars accelerated faster and faster. i cast one last look back over my shoulder, saw a bundle of pink, like a drift blossom lying in the backseat. it was mrs. kennedy lying over the president's body. >> still gives me chills. that was of course the voice of former first lady lady bird johnson, recalling the assassination of john f. kennedy, which marks its 60th anniversary next week. later that day, aboard air force one, mrs. johnson and jacqueline kennedy stood next to lyndon johnson as he was hastily sworn in as president. shortly after that day, lady bird began recording her thoughts during johnson's five years in the white house. those recordings remained private until she died at the age of 94 in 2007. now that audio is shedding light on her legacy in the new documentary titled "the lady bird diaries." it's streaming on hulu. joining us now is the film's director, dawn porter. peter baker, you have the first question. >> congratulations on the film. that's really going to be a fabulous thing to watch and particularly well-timed. i know it's based on the book. tell us what about you learned as you were listening to these tapes from 50, 60 years ago, what you learned about lady bird johnson that people in, you know, the younger generations might not know and remember about her. >> you know, lady bird johnson is well-known for efforts, people termed it beautification. but actually she was really an environmentalist, and her work led to lbj signing more than 30 300 bills to protect the environment. richard nixon credited her with the research that led to the formation of the epa. so while her work was termed beautification, and that's really kind of what women were allowed to do. they can plant flowers, but really lady bird was one of our first environmentalists. that along with so many other personal, private moments about their marriage, about the presidency, that's what we learned from hearing the tapes. >> so peter talked to some members of the family last night, and one of the stories he heard was how shocked lady bird was when she went south, went down to alabama. she wanted to go down, talk to people in alabama, explain what they were doing, and yet, she was met with jeers, just very hostile reaction. how difficult was it for her to endure what she and lbj endured the rest of their lives, considered traitors to their own region. >> you know, one of the most interesting things that we discovered was lady bird was really one of the first political spouses to go by herself on a campaign tour. eleanor roosevelt very famously went to make speeches on behalf of fdr, but lady bird went on something called a whistle stop tour. lbj sent her there very strategically. they were both very strategic political operatives. he knew, he had to keep the south. he had to keep those black voters that had propelled jfk into the presidency. he also couldn't lose the white vote. so he sends this white, southern woman on this whistle stop tour, and she's met with very, very ugly protests. but she holds her own. she completes the tour and, actually, lady bird does deliver the south for lbj. >> dawn, first ladies are often thought about as the person who dutifully stands by their husband. the film captures how she reacted to or responded to moments in history, including critiques and attacks on her husband. what did you learn about her from that, or even generally the role of first ladies in that regard? >> you know, one thing that people forget is that before jfk was assassinated, there was no plan of succession. there wasn't a number two. so lbj had no vice president for that first period where he completed jfk's term of office. instead, he had a group of close advisers including lady bird. but some of the most stunning things that she talks about are lbj considered resigning the presidency, and he was going to do in a public address to the nation. and lady bird writes out his resignation speech. he puts it into his pocket, and he goes to address the nation. she's recording as she's watching him deliver this speech, and she says in the recorder, is he going to do it? and when you look at the tape, you see that moment where we almost had a president of the united states resign. i think you can imagine what holy heck would erupt if the president resigned during a public address. but that's just some of the things that she tells us through her diaries, which are now available now that she made them available. she also made johnson's tapes available, and those have been, you know, just such a benefit to history. >> so remarkable. the documentary is "the lady bird diaries". it's streaming now on hulu. dawn porter, thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> jen, tell us in your remaining time we have what you have planned. >> i just spent the day with governor pritzker yesterday in illinois. and people often think of him as this kind of billionaire, of course, that's what we know him of. he is an unapologetic progressive, i've rarely met a man who's so comfortable talking about abortion rights, so we talked all about that, the convention, and what he thinks joe biden should be doing. so that's going to be part of our sunday show. >> i love it. and katty, where can people go see -- go to youtube, influential katty kay, and next week we're going to resolve the big debate about "love actually". >> we have to hear that. incredible film. this is going to be a battle to the end. that does it for us this morning. hope you have a great weekend. ana cabrera picks up the coverage

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