amid more and a warning. she's going to be here with me to talk about it in her first primetime interview. again, we have never done an interview before. i'm going to be speaking with her in public for the first time here ever. it is next monday live here at nine pm. you have not heard about what is in her book because it's all about a very tight embargo. but you are going to want to see what she has to say. that is a week from tonight. i will see you then, that does it for me for now. and that was time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> reporter: good evening, that means you know what that means to me for next monday night. that means have to get everything done and ready for my show, like a good 55 minutes earlier than i usually do so that i just don't miss a word of this first ever discussion between rachel maddow and this genie. >> reporter: thank you, i can send you a sleep aid or something to try to help adjust your hours? i will say, the cheney book it's -- nothing of it has looked so far. i think people are going to be surprised and very interested to hear what it is she has to say. it's going to be the first primetime interview that she's done. but it's also the first interview that i've done with her ever and i am really, really, really looking for to it. what a world where this genie is the person interviewed by the republican conscious on a matter like this. but that is -- it's going to be interesting. >> reporter: you now have me and millions of others in the stage we call can't wait. >> reporter: thank you, lawrence. look >> reporter:, banks rachel. what we begin tonight with readings from donald trump supporters. you're about to hear the words of donald trump's most devoted supporters. supporters who are willing to kill for donald trump. they will also vote for donald trump, no matter what crimes he is charged with or convicted of. donald trump knows he cannot win the presidency without the votes of the people whose words you are about to hear. donald trump tries to please these people every day. they are the kind of people donald trump never wanted to know or been here or have anything to do with until he became a politician. now donald trump needs these people. now donald trump is hoping that one of these people can somehow get on one of his criminal juries because that might be his only hope. of not being convicted. everything you are about to hear comes from transcripts of voice mail messages. left by donald trump's most devoted supporters. i hope they bury your ugly when [bleep] your of filthy little jews. i mean, honestly. you should be assassinated. you should be killed. and there is this from another devoted supporter of donald trump, resigned now, you dirty trees in this piece of trash snake. we are going to get you and anyone of you dirty, backstabbing, lying, cheating american. you are nothing but a bunch of communists. we are coming to remove you permanently. and here's another voice mail message. from a devoted supporter of donald trump was. do you think being a judge changes the fact that your a pathetic little [bleep] you little door with your little [bleep] g girl [bleep] helper. god i hope you [bleep] die. what that is just a sampling of the voice mail messages reviewed by court security officials in manhattan where the judge presiding over the current civil fraud trial of donald trump in and manhattan receives those calls, hundreds of them every day. in a filing with the appeals court in new york to support the continuation of a gag order on donald trump in that case, the head of security from the court said the threats against justice and go ron and his clerk are considered to be serious and credible and are not hypothetical or speculative. the implementation of the gag orders resulted in the decrease of the number of threats, harassment, and disparaging messages that the judge and his staff received. however, when mr. trump violated the gag orders, the number of disparaging messages increased on a daily basis. the judge and his staff are being inundated with hundreds of harassing and threatening phone calls, voice mail messages, and emails that has resulted in the judicial threats assessment units having to constantly reassess and evaluate what security protections to put in place to ensure the safety of the judge and those around him. on thanksgiving day, special prosecutor jack smith filed a copy of that statement in the case of united states of america versus donald j trump or donald trump is appealing a limited gag order issued in that case by the trial court judge tanya chutkan. the appeals, court federal appeals court hearing in that case last monday indicated that the appeals court judges were in favor of preserving most if not all of the gag order issued by judge chutkan. today, donald trump's lawyers urged the new york appeals court which is considering donald trump's appeal of the gag order issued by judge arthur engoron who is receiving, he's the judge who's receiving those hundreds of harassing phone calls a day, to completely overrule the gag order issued by the judge. the -- insist that death threats issued by donald trump supporters because of things donald trump says about the people threatened are not donald trump's fault. the trump lawyers right, at base, the disturbing behavior engaged in by anonymous, third-party actors towards the judge and principal law clerk publicly presiding over an extremely polarizing and high profile trial merits appropriate security measures. however, it does not justify the wholesale, aggregation of petitioners first amendment rights in a proceeding of immense stakes to petitioners which has been compromised by the introduction of partisan bias on the bench, in essence, the constitution does not permit justice and go on to curtail petitioners speech simply because people may react to things that president trump said. and so there are donald trump's lawyers falsely accusing judge engoron of having a partisan bias against donald trump in the case. those lawyers know that the language that they are using in that statement is in and of itself enough to create more death threats against the judge who they are falsely and unethically accusing of having a partisan buys. today, in washington, d.c., dutch truck and once again ruled against donald trump. this time for what the judge called a trump fishing expedition. donald trump's criminal defense lawyers in the washington federal case against him told -- they wanted authority to obtain information from the house january committee that was disbanded by the republicans now controlling the house. the trump lawyers were asking for a massive amount of material that they imagine, just imagine the january six committee may have at some point possessed. and in our order denying the trump lawyers request, judge chutkan wrote today, quote, the defendant does not stay with any specificity the information that he seeks in those records repeating only that it is important and related to the events and people associated with the select committees work and therefore the january 6th 2021 attack. the broad scope of the records that the defendant seeks and has vague description of their potential elements resemble less a good faith effort to obtain, identified evidence than they do a general fishing expedition that attempts to use rule 17 see subpoena as a discovery device. for an explanation of all those legal developments, we turn to andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief -- in the eastern district of new york. he is the co-host of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. also with us barbara mcquade, she's a former u.s. law attorney and a professor at the university of michigan law school. she's also the co-host of the podcast hashtag sisters in law. they are both msnbc legal analysts. and andrew, then we begin with you on the first point that i was raising tonight which is the exact words, the exact words of the threats that one judge presiding over just one of the trump cases is getting. and we have those exact words because they were submitted by a court security officer as part of the file in donald trump's appeal of a gag order that was designed to ethel east reduce those threats and seem to be working at reducing those threats. jack smith now using that same document provided by that new york court security official to make the same case to the appeals court in washington, d.c., considering the gag order in that case about just how dangerous donald trump's speech is when it reaches his devoted followers who then phone in the threats to judges. i think the way i think about this is i don't think that this is a first amendment issue. when people are talking about, gee, people are restricting the free speech rights. someone who's running for president, that's just not the correct framing for what the judge in new york at the district judge in d.c. are doing. they are restricting the bail conditions and the condition center which a defendant is allowed release or in the new york case it's a civil case. they have a defendant as a parties entitled to speak about what is going on. and i think if you think of it that way it is not just some arbitrary restriction, it's about prophylactic rules. it's commonplace, lawrence, for every defendant in the federal system to be told that you have no second amendment right while your criminal defendant that is a right that you do not have once you are indicted. if you're acquitted, then you can have your gun back but similarly you give up your fourth amendment rights in large part when you are a defendant. you have to show up at pretrial, you could enter house rust, you can also be in jail pending trial. these are restrictions that the court is entitled to place on defendants to make sure that they show up and also that they're not a danger to the community. donald trump should not be given more or less rights than anyone else in his position and i think the record in new york and d.c. is ample to show that his words lead two and a classic call and response lead to violence. i point out it's not just in new york. judge chutkan has death threats also all the time. there is a woman who is actually charged with threatening to kill her. and that's the kind of thing that the courts are allowed to take steps, prophylactic steps to make sure that that does not have been to keep the integrity of our judicial system intact. >> reporter: barbara, it seems to me that there is something awfully close to a proof in the filing in the new york case with these specific threats to the new york judge, but more specifically to the judges clerk. it is impossible for donald trump's followers to know who the clerk's. were it not for donald trump's public attacks on the clerk. that's how they know how the court exists. that's how they know her name. that's how they know things about her that make them attack her directly. there is a link between donald trump's public attacks on the clerk and then his supporters threatening the life of the clerk. yes, and i think that's exactly the reason jacks mitt took that letter that was initially filed in the new york court and shared with the d.c. circuit court of appeals that is considering that cha which chutkan gag order. a week ago, there was some to skate dispute about what it means to target someone. you know what it means to target somebody? it is going after a cleric by name so that members of the public who had previously no idea who this person was are now harassing and threatening that person. that's what it means to target someone. so they're using this as evidence. they're also talking about the fact that harm might be a little speculative at the stage. you might want to see if something happens. jack smith against that it's happening. this is the evidence. do we need to wait any longer for any of this. it's happening. by giving him, giving the court that sort of subsidiary evidence, this is not a speculative harm. this is what it means to target someone in the court of appeals ought to affirm the gag order the judge chutkan has imposed before we see all kinds of things that are going on in new york happen in the d.c. case as well. and, or the fishing expeditions that chutkan described in her refusal to open up a subpoena authority that donald trump's defense lawyers can have in this case, seeking evidence from the january 6th committee. to what extent does the defendant have a right to get the courts help and use subpoena power in obtaining evidence, like the kind that donald trump was describing in the plea? i'm glad you asked that question. this is something that was going to be a loser from the moment i read it. here is the main reason. the government's response to donald trump's request to get what he alleged were purported missing transcripts was to say we've given you all of them. the government actually said and represented you have all the transcripts. there is nothing missing. and so at that point, donald trump's argument was, okay but now i want the videos, not just the transcripts of certain months. they had a lot of videos but they wanted certain ones. and the judge said you haven't even gone through the written transcripts to tell me what's revel relevant about them. and he even said, here's why their demeanor, their tone might be relevant, you might have made an argument that -- you haven't even done. that the court basically, said do your homework and know what was turned out for you, review it, and don't make a motion essentially, she was saying, that is geared to public opinion where you can try to manufacture a claim when there's evidence when that is in fact not what's going on here. andrew weissmann, barbara mcquade, thank you very much for starting off our discussion and please stay with us across the commercial break for next discussion. we already knew that jared kushner was running his own personal presidential pardon bracket in the trump white house which he used to grant his own father a pardon. but what we actually did know how bad the kushner partner racket was. we knew it was very, very bad but new reporting by the new york times shows us it was even worse than that. and that reporting shows us how bad the pardon racket would be. every day in another trump presidency. that's next with andrew weizmann and barbara mcquade. barbara mcquade so now, do you have a driver's license? oh. what did you get us? with the click of a pen, you can a new volkswagen at the sign, then drive event. hurry in to lease a new 2023 all-electric id.4 for zero down, zero deposit, zero first month's payment, and zero due at signing. limited inventory available. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular 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years of a ten year sentence on drug charges that he pleaded guilty to in 2011, managing to stay out of prison for several years. i have long running investigation during that time, he shifted from the drug business to predatory lending to small businesses, the new york times, reports, according to court records, jonathan braun threatened some of the small business owners who owed him money with statements like, i will take your daughters from you. he told a rabbi that he would, quote, publicly embarrass him adding, i'm going to make you bleed and i will make you suffer for every penny. jared kushner decided to give the man who issued the threats of pardon. kushner was running his own pardoning shop in the white house, completely outside the justice department channels. william barr, donald trump's last confirmed general told the new york times, quote, when he took over the justice department, he discovered that there were pardons being given without any bedding by the department. one of the beneficiaries of the jared kushner pardon shop was jared kushner's father, charles kushner, who was convicted of federal crimes involving hiring a prostitute so that he could secretly videotape her with his brother-in-law to then blackmail his brother-in-law to prevent his brother-in-law from cooperating with investigators. that's life in the kushner family. jared kushner has said there is no one on earth he admires more than his grotesquely criminally minded of who, as it turns, there is a friend of jonathan brown's father. so, jonathan bronze father urging jared kushner's father to get a pardon for his son and attorney alan dershowitz calling jared kushner, asking for the pardon after appearing as defense counsel for donald trump in the first impeachment trial of donald trump, jonathan braun shot to the top of jared kushner's personal pardon list, even though prosecutors were pressuring jonathan brown to cooperate in another investigation, which he's facing possible federal criminal charges. jonathan braun and even more kushner connections and he probably needed to get this pardon. the times reports that jonathan braun was in the very first freshman class of kushner yoshida hospital in livingston new jersey, which was funded by jared kushner's father. jared kushner's youngest sister, nicole, was a classmate of jonathan bronze in that first freshman class. in a court filing, new york state attorney general has said that jonathan braun, quote, continues to commit usury. if there is another trump presidency, kushner pardon shop is likely to be issuing pardons like that every day. possibly in effect selling pardons like that in exchange for political contributions or contributions to donald trump's personal legal defense fund. donald trump was not the only possible criminal working in the trump white house. and you've eisman and barbara mcquade are back with us. barbara, as we've discussed in this program before, the justice department runs a carefully