more likely place together to go. >> how about the transcript. >> if the transcript didn't exist and if the phone call didn't happen then that might work. but the problem is there is a phone call where it's more than a presumption. and and then there is a transcript where he is saying it. i think i feel like the throwing the giuliani under the bus thing doesn't work. because when that happens it's usually -- dsh it's the president saying i didn't even know. like this was going on. people under me were doing things. i had no idea. but trump has his fingers all over this. >> and trump repeatedly said to people, to voger, sondland, talk to rudy. rudy knows. >> and he made -- and he said it to zelensky. if he hadn't done that then maybe he could say rudy was freelancing. how does he now say rudy was free landing. >> i remember also today sondland it was a fascinating part of the testimony where he argues with what bill taylor said that there was an irregular channel of diplomacy happening.