acts by him that then brought about the threat he responded to. so again, i think this was kyle's testimony was necessary. it is what the entire defense turned on. >> i am wondering, charles, you point out his age, sara, 17-year-old, now 18. do you think his age played any role in the verdict? the fact he was so young? >> well, pamela, i don't necessarily think that it's just his age. we have to be very clear about what that means. i think that what we have seen throughout the course of this trial, be it from the judge, from right wing media, from the public in many cases, we've seen a consistent infantalization of rittenhouse in front of the public. part of that was strategic by the defense. the way he presented on the stand. presented in court. to remind the jury that he was young. but in terms of his age, i want to be very clear about something. we've seen many instances where people who were not like kyle rittenhouse, and i am referring to race in this instance, took the stand, i'm referring to the exonerated five in new york, also known as the central park