for a parliamentary system in which the prime minister emerges from this or presidential system like the one we have. and this is going to be a debate but that is what democracy is. this is the exciting part. >> in the end, the tu indonesians did it on their own. i think that's better for the future of tunisia because it shows the people who have decided to go through this riots and demonstrations and in the end revolution. >> rose: we conclude with author alan riding. his book is called "and the show went on: cultural life in nazi occupied paris." >> france seemed to be the capital of this notion of the engaged intellectual and i thought that really the moment see-to-see whether this premise was valid, the premise being that artists and intellectuals and writers enjoy enormous prestige during the good days and therefore in my view they have very special responsibilities during the bad days and how did they live up to it. >> rose: remembering dr. king, a look at tunisia and a historical examination of nazi occupied paris when we continue. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today in the united states it's a national holiday in honor of dr. martin luther king, jr. dr. king changed the course of american history and was a powerful force in the stlaept lead to the passage of the historic civil rights legislation. across the country today and over the weekend there were events commemorating dr. king. president barack obama and first lady michelle obama participate in a service project in washington. >> rose: michelle and i and the girls were extraordinarily proud that each year on martin luther king's birthday this is how we celebrate is making sure we're giving a little something back to the community and i hope that all that projects that are taking place across the country on this day are getting similar attention because this is part of what america's all about. and after a painful week where so many of us were focused on tragedy it's good for us to remind ourselves of what this country all about. this kind of service project is what's best in us. >> rose: tonight in memory of dr. king, we bring you a conversation from 2008 with the late historian john hope franklin and the television journalist and author tom brokaw. today marks the 40th anniversary of dr. martin luther king, jr.'s death. he was just 39 years old. early his career, dr. king became a vital leader in the civil rights movement. >> and i've seen the promised land. >> rose: in 1955, he led the montgomery bus boycott and in 1957 he helped found the southern christian leadership conference. in 1963 his efforts led to the march on washington where he gave his seminal "i have a dream" speech. dr. king's work led to the passing of the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 19 a 65. he received the nobel peace prize for his dedication to ending segregation and racial discrimination at the age of 35. >> my eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord! i thishgs sunday, the history channel premiers a new look at dr. king's life. it's called "king." it's narrated by tom brokaw. >> gandhi liberated india from britiscolonial rule by leading a movement of non-violent resistance. king adopted his methods and soon his boycott stretched from weeks to months. the bus company and downtown businesses starting losing money. the white community grew increasingly agitated. king was arrested twice, threatened. and then, on january 30, his house was bombed. his wife coretta and nine week old daughter were inside. >> when he rushed home not knowing whether or not i had been injuredtor baby had been injured my father said to me "well, coretta i came to get you and the baby." and i said to him "well, dad, i can't go. i want to stay here with martin because i feel this is where i should be." >> he said we'll just have v to keep praying for strength. the strength to keep going and fight what they're trying to do. that was preach. all the time. is we can't stop. >> despite the dangers he faced, king held fast to the boycott and his non-violent philosophy, a revolutionary strategy that stunned even his followers. >> it was a place of murder, a place of mayhem. non-violence in the face of this mayhem, that would be a miracle i would love to witness. and i witnessed it. >> king's tactics paid off more than a year after the boycott began. the supreme court outlawed segregation of public buses. the boycott was over and a new movement had begun. >> and the negro citizens of montgomery are urged to return to the buses tomorrow morning on a non-segregated basis. (cheers and applause) >> rose: joining me now is tom brokaw. also joining me from north carolina john dr. hope franklin, the esteemed historian. i am pleased to have them as we take this time to celebrate this anniversary of dr. king and look at civil rights and race in america. john hope franklin, tell me where we are in your judgment in terms of the mutual that began with martin. >> the movement extends back to the early part of the 20th century with the founding of certain organizations, particularly the civil rights organization the national association for advancement of colored people. but by the time king came to the scene in the 1950s and '60s, we have turned the corner and we were in another stage of the advancement of the rights of all people in this country. we retire there had for a while between 1950, let's say, and 1968 and the movement took off with a new burst of enthusiasm and energy with the leadership of martin luther king, jr. during this time. >> rose: tom brokaw, you just have completed a two-hour film. tell me what you learned about the man. >> well, what i learned about him in the retrospect is that he was a larger and more important figure than we realized even at the time and we thought so much of him at the time. i think he was almost perfectly cast for the role that was... that he was thrust into. he was just 26 years old when he began to lead the montgomery bus boycott. vernon jordan says they went to him and said "we need somebody who's college." somebody who'd been to college. and he had this great spiritual commitment and great moral commitment and he had the philosophy of non-violence which became the driving force, really of the movement and that was critically iortant because for the rest of the country with network television news just coming online they were able to see the courage of those young demonstrators and their dignity and the dignity of their leaders in the face of unspeakable violence and insults and the worst kinds of injustices and they stood their ground because they believed so strongly in what they were doing. that was a brilliant stroke on his part, and they stayed with it. they developed strategy kind of on the run. it was not just dr. king but andrew young and abernathy and harry belafonte in new york. >> rose: but he is the person that made sure non-violence taught began di was the operative tactic of civil rights. >> and he was mature beyond his years, charlie. what we tend to forget is how this movement grew out of the church and how it grew out of that very strong baptist church culture that existed in the south and the strength of the black middle-class family, if you will, or in the poor families as well who went to the church and they responded to what they were hearing there and he used the pulpit of the church to spread the word not just about the gospel, but about the need for negroes-- as they were called then-- to take a stand on behalf of their rights. >> rose: where was he moving at the time of his death? he was in memphis to give his name and support... >> he was struggling at the time of his death. you know, it was 1968, the movement started in the late 1950s. by 19678 this country was in considerable turmoil because of the war and the counterculture within the civil rights movement itself. there had been the emergence of a new generation, stokely carmichael and others who wanted to be far more militant. john lewis was driven out of the student non-violence coordinating committee by stokely car michael who described him as a "christ-loving fool." so he was trying to maintain his position and he had moved by then to economic justice and they had started the poor people's campaign in washington. it was not necessarily going well. they were beleaguered by weather and a lot of other things and he went to memphis the first time, it didn't work out very well because he didn't plan for it very well. then he went back the second time to make a stand. so it was a difficult time for him. it was a time that... he was not killed at the apogee, if you will, of his influence. he was... >> rose: because there was a transition going on in a sense? >> it was a transition going on and he was maintaining his leadership in it and trying to shift the attention from just racial equality to economic justice. and he'd also come out very strongly against the war earlier, a year earlier. and for a lot of people they thought that it was inappropriate for him to do that. but he said... and even some of his closest advisors thought he ought not to have done that. but he felt very strongly and he went to riverside church in new york and made a statement against the war. >> rose: john hope franklin,s where the civil rights movement? does it exist? we have seen the passage of time and presidents and leaders. >> oh, it exists. you know, one of the things about the movement is that we've become accustomed to it, therefore we don't see the drama the way we saw it during martin luther king's life. but it exists. it doesn't have a former organization that one points to and says "there it is." there are many movements, many activities that can be subsumed under the general title of the civil rights movement. equal rights women's rights, all kinds of struggles for rights for various groups of people as well as for the entire population. thus i think it can be said that the civil rights movement does exist. i would go so far as to say that it's flourishinging. one of the things that we usually associate with the movement like that is one person. now, we don't have martin luther king or any one resembling him at the present time. but we have people. we have people in multiple numbers and therefore they can be regarded as leaders in the civil rights movement and followers in the civil rights movement if they're not as dramatic and not as impulsive as we think the leaders were. >> rose: tom, can you argue-- as you have talked about in your book-- that those young african american members of state assemblies and lieutenant governors and mayors are the direct descendants of martin luther king? >> well, i'm very struck as i... i wonder whether dr. franklin agrees with me, as i go across the south i see what i call metaphorically the grandchildren of dr. king. they're in the law firms and the editors and editorial writers in newspapers that were traditionally all black. i suppose one of the most striking moments that i've mean? the last year or so is that i was at old miss visiting one of my friends who had left old miss curtis willke, a famous newspaper reporter, because of its racist attitudes, has gone back now because of the chancellor and state working harder at race relations. and i met the president of the ole miss alumni association. she's an african american woman. now, that's a real statement, charlie. >> i was on the campus of the university of mississippi just a few months ago andt was in such great contrast to what i had seen there back in the 1960s. it's a different world. >> i heard him speak at duke and i remember we all left the auditorium and went back to different places and i went back to my class, a class of american history and we sat and talked about the speech and what we all had heard and the sense of-- as tom was talking about-- literary reference, the sense of passion, the sense of people being moved by words, some of the things we have seen in the political campaign we're undergoing now. what were his last four or five hours like? dr. king. >> you know, in the 24-hour period he had gotten... the plane was delayed getting him to memphis, there was some question about that and he was not feeling well. heed that flu. so the saturday night before there was a big service in which they expected him, like 11,000 people showed up at this big church in memphis and ralph abernathy preached for an hour and they called dr. king back at the hotel at the lorraine and said "you've got to get over here, these people want to hear you." >> rose: (laughs) >> and apparently ralph abernathy, his great friend, gave a great, great speech and then dr. king arrived. and he gave that speech that is probably his second-greatest speech which is after "i have a dream" and he talks about having seen the promised land. is there's something to be said for longevity but i may not be with you for a long time but i have seen the promised land. and at the end of this powerful speech-- i don't want to give it away because i want people to watch it and i could never duplicate it-- you see him collapse into the arms of his aides who are standing behind him. and he comes out the next day feeling a little better and he talks to andy down in the lobby of... pardon me, in the courtyard of the hotel and andy has the a gospel singer with him and reverend king gives him some directions about what he'd like to hear that night and a shot rings out. and he's dead instantly. >> rose: dr. martin luther king, jr. died of an assassin's bullet on april 4, 19678 at age 39. he had a short life but a large legacy. and for that reason, this country honors him on this day. we'll be back. we continue by looking at tz. on friday it became the first arab country to unseat an autocratic leader through popular revolt. a new unity government was formed less opposed to legal opposition. it excluded the outlawed islamist and communist opposition. in response, thousands of tunisians spilled back into the streets demanding the ruling party be completely abolished. across the arab world, governments and citizens are watching closely what happened next. joining me now, two tunisians, taoufik ben amor is a senior at arab studies. and malika zeghal is a professor of contemporary islamic thought at harvard university. i am pleased to have both of them on this program. what happened and what caused the overthrow of this autocratic leader? >> charlie, i think there are two main factors that can help us explain what happened in tunisia. first, the social economic aspect. tunisia is a small country that has been described as the miracle of the middle east in terms of social economic development. in the last decade there was a growth of 5%, but in the last two years, it came down to 3%. there is a lack of economic opportunities for young tunisians, the unemployment rate is around 20% and in some regions around 40%. so that's one element that started this whole revolution, especially when mohammed azizi set himself on fire. he had been trying to sell vegetables and fruits in his town outside in the street using his cart but he never was able to get a permit and he didn't have the money to pay the under the table to get this permit and he was harassed by the police and he ended up in this suicide setting himself on fire and starting from there the protest started and went way beyond the usual bread riots because it became very quickly a political protest and it generalizeed into all the regions of tunisia and people started to demand representation, to demand liberty, to demand work and national dignity. there was one slogan that was repeated over and over which was "work, freedom, national dignity." and so those two factors, social economic demands and political demands have come together and have led to this extraordinary moment in the middle east which has led to the departure of president ben ali who had really established a dictatorship in tunisia. >> rose: and he has taken refuge in saudi arabia. >> yes, he is. yes, he has. >> rose: was there a political element to this? s it a popular... popular revolt without political leadership coming from a political party? >> yes, this was a spontaneous movement. it caught all sectors of tunisian society, especially the youth. and, you know, the way i looked at all the protests on videos, there were videos posted on the internet everyday coming from cell phones was really that the whole people of tunisia, the nation, was demanding political reforms and the symbols that were visible on the streets during the protests were very important to... are very important to underline. for instance, the flag of tunisia was very much different present. the national anthem sung all the time by the demonstrators and there was a sense for a desire for a second liberation. as you know, tunisia was occupied by the french and gained its independence in 1966. this is for a second liberation. it's really a new moment where tunisians recover their independence from a dictatorship. >> i would go even further than that, charlie, because i think that people have been unable to participate in the democratic process even from the times of the french occupation that in fact the regime of the ex-president and ben ali who llows hiwere in a way a continuation of this deprivation from participating, from developing a civil society. there was such an incredible vacuum of power even to the point where a lot of people were very concerned about what the is going to happen there. all of these parties have been either exiled, leaders have been put in prisons and so whatever mechanism of opposition to the government that could actually emerge now to create a new civil society is in most of the times not completely present. >> if there was an overthrow of a government you have a new unit government that contains members of the old government in important positions. >> exactly, exactly. >> rose: what does that say? >> exactly. it says a lot of things. and people... most popular opinion now is totally opposed to that. >> rose: to the unity government >> to the unity government. >> rose: will it stand? >> i think not. if i don't know if malika's agrees with me but i think the prime minister's days are counted. this is mohammed ghannouchi who's currently the... because he's seen as part of the old regime, part of the old structure that people want to put aside. so my feeling is that probably would the next step and maybe some other personality will emerge. >> rose: some of their argument is that those most responsible for the corruption in the past have been removed. >> right. >> rose: is there any... does that have credibility to you? >> it doesn't have enough credibility. people are totally aware of who of the opposition was given which ministry which they think are actually not significant. so the minister of interior... the important ministers, especially the minister of the interior is still the same. >> rose: and defense and... >> defense and foreign affairs, yes. >> rose: those are all the same? >> these are freedom the old regime. >> rose: sos where the army in all of this? >> well, the army, you know is interesting because it has become extremely popular because it has supported the demonstrators against the police in particular and against the bloody repression. the head of the army had refused to fire on the demonstrators and has been ousted by ben ali, he's now back and the army is extremely popular. the problem is that it's stretched. it has only 12 helicopters. it's very difficult for the army to fight against the militias, the political police, and on the other thoond protect the tunisians and reestablish order. and i agree entirely with fufic ben amor. the government has been in power for ten years and he is is symbol of even mor