three years to kind of reach for extreme ideas to keep people out of the country. >> more than that, i mean, there are multiple incidents as reported in your book of the president essentially not viewing the law as a binding constraint. he says do a thing against the law and people say that's not lawful and he basically doesn't care. >> right. i mean, they pushed back against him when things weren't legal, when they thought things weren't moral or ethical and when they thought things weren't practical. closing the 2,000 mile border isn't practical. and the president sometimes could be talked out of things and sometimes pushed forward. one of the things that everybody told us as we interviewed folks for the book was they would talk him out of something, they would think that he had sort of let it go, and then he would come back to it again and again, the idea of an electrified fence, the idea of spikes on the top of a wall that could pierce human