rapport-building techniques, which by the way, are legal. >> and that's the valid point here. in fact, we have testimony. we have the information that he got from abu zubaydah, and we know that to be more reliable than what was got from enhanced interrogation techniques, and to this day there are people who will defend the idea that interrogation works. what's in it for hem to defend it, other than protecting their own legacy? >> i think that's precisely what's in it for them. they're right to pretend that what they did was great, when the record shows just the opposite. and this was not something that i would have been able to say conclusively until i made this film, because we were able through a number of lawsuit against the cia to uncover some information that we hadn't been able to uncover before. but it's demonstrably true that these enhanced interrogation techniques were an utter failure. and they were brutal, and most likely illegal, despite the attempts of lawyers to try to