familiar with the matter. this is important because it means that trump knew about the complaint at two key moments. when he made his decision in early september to release the $391 million in security assistance to ukraine. and his denial to a key ambassador around the same time that there was a quid pro quo with kyiv. trump used the phrase before it had entered the public lexicon in the ukraine affair. the white house has declined to comment on this but the administration did have one thing to its favor today. the federal judge who ruled that former white house counsel don mcgahn has got to comply with a house subpoena for his testimony put her ruling on a brief hold. that allows the government time to appeal. as the headline in t"the new yok times" puts it, trump keeps losing in court but his legal strategy is winning anyway. joining me now from the white house is nbc's hans nichols. what's the latest on all this? >> well, when you talk to people close to the process and have been watching it both inside and outside of the white house, it seems to me that they think that the actual process argument that they're on. the idea that this is an entire sham, the impeachment hoax as they like to say. that they're winning on the process argument. and you extrapolate from there. it seems as though they'd be disinclined to participate in any meaningful way in a house investigation unless it's a fundamentally different kind of investigation. the kind of investigation that initially called for where they would be able, the white house, be able to call the kind of witnesses they want. that's hunter biden. that's the whistle-blower. remember, every step of the way, the white house hasn't -- doesn't feel as though they've had their concern being listened to. of course, constitutionally, it's the house that actually runs this. but i think we just got a little pres preview moments ago, rudy giuliani tweeted and talked about this impeachment sham, this impeachment hoax. and this general idea that this argument is winning at least in the polls they see. this quinnipiac poll they're citing that actually shows favor for impeachment moving in the other direction. moving more towards the president. so i think the white house wants to find out a little bit more about what chairman nadler envisions. but right now, it seems as though they're disinclined to do a full participation. ali. >> hans, thank you. hans nichols for us at the white house. and "the new york times" piece wasn't the only damning revelation. new testimony transcripts from an office of management and budget official, mark sandy, reveals how intense the withholding of that ukrainian aid was for the office of management and budget. this was part of his testimony, his close-door testimony. according to mark sandy, the withholding of that -- of that money was part of the reason why two omb officials resigned. including one official from the omb's legal department. sandy also provided even more revealing context to the timeline of the aid and then there's this. he testified that the white house chief of staff, mick mulvaney, notified him that trump had directed the administration officials freeze ukraine's military aid. for more on this, i want to bring in the man who's been poring over the transcripts for us. nbc national political reporter. josh letterman. josh, mark sandy was one of the officials who testified behind closed doors about the role that the office of management and budget played in this $391 million. and he said some interesting things about why they did it, when they did it, and who was involved in the actual mechanics of holding back this aid. >> that's right. and let's back up to monday, ali. that's when the white house budget office, which we all omb, put out a statement saying everything that happened with this ukraine suspension of aid was done with a quote legal consensus. that it all followed normal routines and procedures. then one day later, we find out that, in fact, not one but two officials within that same white house budget office were so concerned and frustrated by the way that this aid had been suspended that they resigned, at least in part, in protest of that. and in his deposition, mark sandy, who was one of these senior budget officials at the white house. lawmakers wanted to make sure that this was specifically a reason that those two had left. and so they asked. i want to show you exactly what he said. they said are you aware of any individual in the legal division resigning or leaving omb, that's the white house budget office, at least in part because of ukraine security assistance? and he said, oh, yes, i am. he also said he was asked this personally expressed to me about concerns and actions vis-a-vis the impoundment control act. that's the law that was passed after watergate that says if congress says you got to spend money, the white house can't just disregard that. and he was asked in the context of ukraine's security assistance and the hold and mark sandy said explicitly, yes. one other new piece of information that we learned just last night as we were going through these documents, ali, was that after mark sandy complained about what was happening, his job role of being the person who approves this kind of spending to other countries was yanked away from him and given instead to his boss. a guy named michael duffy, who is a trump political appointee. >> and sandy is not. sandy is a career guy. and that job was taken away from him. the responsibility over this money. >> that's right. and he also testified that in his entire career as a budget official, he had never seen that kind of authority given to a supervisor of that. it's not the kind of work he would normally have him do. >> thanks for your reporting on this. josh ledderman. as president trump plot their next steps, new information is emerging about the business activities about the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani. "the new york times" and "the washington post" report that giuliani was pursuing business opportunities in ukraine at the same time that he was trying to obtain damaging information on former vice president joe biden and his son hunter biden. according to the papers, giuliani's company, giuliani partners, was drafting agreements with ukrainian government and ukrainian officials. under one draft agreement, his firm would receive $300,000 from the ukrainian justice ministry to help it recover money it believed had been stolen and stashed overseas. another draft agreement called for ukraine's former top prosecutor yuriy lutsenko to pay the company $200,000 to help. both the times and the post report the agreements were never finalized but giuliani has repeatedly made this claim about his work in ukraine. >> i have no financial interest in the ukraine. i'm not gonna financially profit from anything that i know of in the ukraine. i have no business interest in ukraine. it is untrue. it is false. >> "the new york times" talked with giuliani about the draft agreements. according to the times, quote, he said that a ukrainian official approached him this year seeking to hire him personally. giuliani said he dismissed the suggestion but spent about a month considering a separate deal with the ukrainian government. he then rejected that idea. joining us now to dig into this and other impeachment related headlines, natasha, national security correspondent at politico and msnbc contributor. jennifer reuben, washington post opinion writer. and also an msnbc contributor. and with us is msnbc legal analyst danny a hacevallos. one is the reporting giuliani might have been trying to get himself a side hustle in ukraine but then there's the other issue that there is a federal investigation going on into people who were associated with rudy giuliani asking for all correspondence with him, about him, having to do with giuliani associates. give me some context on this. >> first, the government loves to go after people in a subject or target circle because if they don't have any criminal liability, then they're going to be more willing to give up documents. they're not going to put up a fight. they may be concerned about their own liability. i'm not saying necessarily that's the case with giuliani. but i would be very concerned if all of my friends and associates started receiving subpoenas or other inquiries from the government and i was left conspicuously out of the inquiry. he should be concerned about that. but i've been saying for many weeks now that rudy giuliani is getting into issues here because he's trying to wear too many hats. what is rudy giuliani? is he a -- a -- a private member of the state department? is he the president's personal lawyer? is he a businessman trying to make money in ukraine? or is he a lobbyist of some kind for foreign interests or receiving some benefit from foreign interest? if he's multiple things, that can be a real problem for him because he may not be able to follow all the rules for all the ha hats he's wearing. >> natasha, rudy giuliani gave an interview the other day to fox show, america's news headquarters with ed henry, in which he was asked about how much he's in touch with trump and what happens. the implication of ed's question i think was that what happens if trump throws you under the bus the way he tends to throw people under the bus? let's listen to that. >> all of these comments, which are totally insulting, i mean, i've seen things written like he's going to throw me under the bus. >> right. >> when they say that, i say he isn't but i have insurance. >> all right. politico national security correspondent natasha. natasha, what do you make of that? kind of an interesting statement. >> and i think it's true, right? i mean, i think that there's very difficult for people surrounding the president in his current, you know, in his current position as president of the united states and people who knew him before to not have any kind of damaging information on him. just because this presidency and even before that was really engulfed in scandal at all times. so i think it's very likely that giuliani does have some kind of information about what the president knew about the ukraine directive that he was pushing over the last year. and the extent to which the president was directing giuliani to conduct that pressure campaign on vladimir zelensky to -- to find dirt on joe biden in exchange for white house meeting, military aid, et cetera. so i do think there is a lot giuliani could potentially reveal and that's why we have not seen the presidents throw him under the bus just yet. i think there has been an effort to kind of distance himself from giuliani. but as with other people in the past who have turned on him, including, you know, folks like rick gates, michael cohen. there is a sense in the white house that they can't alienate giuliani too much because there probably is a lot that he does know. >> and to that point, jen reuben, donald trump spoke to bill o'reilly about this particular topic. let's listen. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy but rudy -- i don't -- i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine. and i think he cancelled the trip. but, you know, rudy has other clients other than me. i'm one person. >> you didn't direct him to go there on your behalf? >> no. but -- no but you have to understand rudy is a great corruption fighter. >> giuliani's your personal lawyer. so you didn't direct him to go to ukraine and do anything or put any heat? >> no, i didn't direct it. but he -- he is -- he is a warrior. rudy's a warrior. rudy went. he possibly saw -- you have to understand rudy has other people that he represents. >> jen reuben, that is a real brain teaser. rudy's got other clients. same thing trump said about michael cohen by the way. he's got lots of clients. didn't turn out michael cohen actually had that many clients. really good guy. crime fighter. corruption fighter. all that. this -- this seems to be the unwinding of this. >> yes. we're one day away i think from rudy giuliani hardly knew the guy. these are the serial sort of excuses he uses. there is a very interesting tension here. on one hand, the more clients and the more hats, as danny said, that giuliani is using. the more there is room for trump to argue, well, maybe he was doing all these crazy things at someone else's behest. maybe it wasn't for me. that's not a bad argument if you're trying to make a case for someone who doesn't have much of a defense. on the other hand, we know from trump, he was telling everyone go talk to rudy. he told that to the president of ukraine. he told that to sondland. everyone was told go talk to rudy. so i think rudy giuliani obviously is an important link. but the notion that he was operating for somebody else and not the president is going to be really, really hard to prove because we have trump's own words asking all of these players to consult with him. and we have from all these players, directions coming back from rudy giuliani. he is an absolute key figure. as is, frankly, the acting chief of staff mick mulvaney. as are the rest of the individuals at omb. going back to your earlier report. it is interesting at omb, we see the same pattern we saw at state and to a certain extent at defense, which was mid-level bureaucrats doing their job, behaving honestly, questioning what has never happened before on their watch. some of them quitting. others coming forward to testify. and the rest of them hiding behind some kind of absolute immunity defense. and that's why we don't have the head of omb or the deputy of omb. that's why we have the highest we've been able to go has been the witness that -- whose transcript we now have. so it's a really interesting tension between trying to distance one self from rudy but then have to explain all these instances where people were directed to rudy. but he certainly does have a lot of information. he certainly was the go-between between the scheme of trying to get dirt on the bidens and donald trump, who was getting this. this was rudy. this was rudy driving the train. >> and, natasha, to that point, lots and lots of people testified about rudy, including fiona hill, who said bolton said that he was running a drug deal and somebody said he's a bomb -- hand grenade that's about to go off. but need look no further than the memo of the phone call of july 25th in which the white house released this. it says rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. if you could speak to him, that would be great. that sort of flies right in the face of the whole idea that rudy giuliani, this guy who happens to be my lawyer, was basically on this trip to ukraine doing his own business. >> yeah. and i also think, you know, because we have the call record and because we have all of these witnesses testifying to the fact that it was the president that ordered this hold on military aid to ukraine back in july. it -- giuliani's role here is important but he's not the most important player in all this, right? that is the president. and i think that is why during these impeachment hearings, we have heard the democrats try to hone in on trump's role in all this. giuliani was an important intermediary but i don't think his role here should be overstated necessarily. because the president was on the phone call asking zelensky personally to investigate joe biden and to work with it -- work with him on it with the attorney general. so while giuliani kind of got the gears in motion here, the president was the one who ultimately was facilitating a lot of this by requesting that the hold on aid be -- be done. and by directing all of his aides to follow through with giuliani's, you know, channel. >> thank you totd three of you for getting us i kicked off. politico national correspondent, natasha. washington post opinion writer jennifer reuben. coming up, we've got so much more on the impeachment inquiry. how will house democrats move forward with the department of justice working so hard to block key witnesses from testifying? a member of the oversight committee who used to work for the justice department will join me after this. but first, we're going to introduce you to a group of republican women taking action to save their own party. you are watching msnbc. it's tough to quit smoking cold turkey. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, you'll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or life-threatening allergic and skin reactions. decrease alcohol use. use caution driving or operating machinery. tell your doctor if you've had mental health problems. the most common side effect is nausea. quit smoking slow turkey. talk to your doctor about chantix. it's an honor to tell you that [ applause ] thank you. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. i love you! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ wthat's why xfinity hasu made taking your internetself. and tv with you a breeze. really? yup. you can transfer your service online in about a minute. you can do that? yeah. and with two-hour service appointment windows, it's all on your schedule. awesome. so while moving may still come with its share of headaches... no kidding. we're doing all we can to make moving simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. president trump claimed during a rally last night that he has strong support from women because a group of ten women in a focus group all raised their hands when they were asked if they would vote for him next year. however, recent polling shows a different story. a new cnn poll found that 64% of women disapprove of the way the president is handling his job. the very same poll found that 61% of women support impeaching the president. some republicans have sent a strong warning to their own party. start supporting women candidates or face potential extinction. now, this is true on the congressional level where the number of republican women in the house dropped from 23 to 13 after the last election. many democratic female candidates have been successful because of support from groups such as emily's list, emerge america, and she should run. but as chris jansing reports, republicans are starting to play catchup. >> nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you. >> this is sue's fifth campaign. >> i'm sue, running for congress. >> nice to meet you. >> she's undefeated in local races in spite of being underestimated. so now, she's running for congress in suburban chicago. >> you running on the republican ticket? >> i am. >> all right. well, i'll be more than glad to -- >> her big challenge, as it is for many women, money. >> the emphasis is put on people who can self-fund. but we may not have the means to self-fund. and so -- >> or necessarily have the contacts or the -- the history of heavy donors. >> contacts is huge. and i'm not in that world. >> resin's message to republicans? money talks so give more of it to women candidates from day one. 2018 was disastrous for republican women. 120 ran for congress but just one freshman was elected. and 11 incumbents either lost or retired. so overall, they lost ten house seats while democrats gained 26. >> i think 2018 was a turning point. >> desperate to improve that dismal success rate, the political arm of the group, winning for women, created the first-ever superpac for republican women years behind the democrats. >> i think it kind of lit the fire in people's bellies. >> you guys got shell lacked. >> we elected only one new republican woman. >> and money certainly wasn't the only problem. >> does donald trump make it harder for a woman to run? >> there are districts we're going to play in where he is hugely popular. we want to stay focused on the candidate and -- and finding the best fit for her district. and then getting her over the finish line. >> winning for women just gave us an exclusive look at its initial endorsement list. including, michelle steele, who wants to take back the orange county california congressional seat flipped by democrat harley ruda. and with four successful local races under her belt, she's undaunted by 2018's losses. >> can 2020 be different? >> it's going to be totally different because i met few of them. out of 161 already filed to run, they're aggressive. they're very smart. and they are so good. and strong. >> they're also talking to each other. sue resin regularly talks to a group of friends with campaign experience. and the night we were with them, the conversation turned to yet one more challenge facing republican women candidates. >> i really think it's the social issues to be honest. i think that the republican party needs -- needs to do some recalibration when it comes to the social issues. >> so if things -- if things like abortion and gay marriage become litmus tests, it works against women in the republican party. >> i think so. >> yeah. >> and i think that we just need to change the conversation about who we are as republicans. >> who is messaging this from the top? who is saying get women elected? if someone has an objective to go get women elected, they're going to make it happen because their livelihood depends on it. >> chris jansing joins me now. sue rezin was talking about supporting, financially supporting, republican women from day one. >> so both parties really, they pretty much stay out of the primaries although anyone who works in politics will tell you sometimes they put their thumb on the scale a little bit for one candidate or another. women and -- and look at 20 -- 2018. 120 ran. most of them lost in the primary because they didn't get that outside help. and as sue said, they don't have that sort of background of having a row la deks full of donors. one thing, they're going to get involved at the primary level. get them to the general. they believe if they can get them to the general, they will have a much better chance of bringing their numbers up. their goal by the way? 20 in 2020 may sound modest but compared to one, it's a big jump. >> so they brought up some interesting points toward the end of your conversation about the social issues. the things that sort of paint them into a corner. what about the elephant in the room? >> the elephant in the room is something they get asked about and they're very honest about it. having said that, they don't think that anybody should have a litmus test on that. and here's the reason why. everybody has a different district. if you're running in a purple district and you need those more moderate democrats, if you need those independents. and let's face it. senate and house are two very different kinds of things when it comes to, for example, voting on something that -- that involves abortion. supreme court is a big thing. right? that's something the senate does. so they're -- they don't want to feel as if to get the support of their party, there is that litmus test because there are lots of districts where they can't win with that. >> separate women to run as republicans. all right. chris, thank you as always for your reporting on this. chris jansing. msnbc senior national correspondent. up next, trump scores a victory for now. so what do democrats plan to do about it? i'm going to ask a member of the oversight committee and layer, pete buttigieg and struggling to gain traction with african-american voters. i'm going to talk to the longest serving african-american congressman in south bend, indiana, about why he's endorsing one of pete's biggest competitors instead. you are watching msnbc. re. come on in. you're turning 65 soon? yep. and you're retiring at 67? that's the plan! well, you've come to the right place. it's also a great time to learn about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. here's why... medicare part b doesn't pay for everything. only about 80% of your medical costs. this part is up to you... yeah, everyone's a little surprised to learn that one. a medicare supplement plan helps pay for some of what medicare doesn't. that could help cut down on those out-of-your-pocket medical costs. call unitedhealthcare insurance company today... to request this free, and very helpful, decision guide. and learn about the only medicare supplement plans endorsed by aarp. selected for meeting their high standards of quality and service. this type of plan lets you say "yes" to any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. there are no networks or referrals to worry about. do you accept medicare patients? 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>> i think we're going to follow the process that's been outlined by the house of representatives. vote was done. we are going to have an impeachment inquiry at the judiciary committee. and based upon what the house votes on at that point, it will or will not move to the senate. >> you -- you were not sort of at the leading edge of this. you were one of those people who, you know, reluctant. you said that the evidence came to you. you are a lawyer. >> right. >> what has changed your mind? and really, the question is, will that affect the rest of the american population? do you think people are so dug in that their minds can be changed? >> i'm hoping people will look at this with an open mind and that we will view our patriotism over our personalities. or even our partisanship. and that's why i try to be in this. is not someone who immediately -- listen, i didn't want him to be president. he is president. we respect the office and let's move from there and see how we can work with this individual. unfortunately, based upon not just what the whistle-blower said but the corroborating evidence, whether it's firsthand or secondhand information. corroborating evidence of dates and times from "the washington post" and others. it appears there was, in fact, an abuse of power. >> i want to ask you about the stuff you and i have talked about a lot and that is the devastation from hurricanes that hit puerto rico and the virgin islands. new york times article out today shows that fema's hurricane aid to puerto rico and the virgin islands has stalled comparing it to aid to states on the mainland where similar things happened. >> sure. most definitely. you look at the numbers that they have there. in florida, in texas, 3,700 projects are done or accounted for or money's appropriated. whereas in the virgin islands, we have less than 200. many of those that were already agreed upon were related to emergency debris removal. we have not had clearance on hospital rebuilding, schools rebuilding. one of the schools right now is out. the students are not allowed to go back into the building. there seems to be some noxious odor. these are the things we should be concerned about as americans. >> what do you think's happening here? why is that happening? in puerto rico, we know we got all sorts of other issues going on both with puerto rico and the fact that the president sometimes forgets puerto ricans are american citizens. >> for us, it's we're completely forgotten. it's a combination of issues. one, of course we're a small area. we do not have two senators that sit in the senate to speak for us. we do not vote for a president in the general elections. that also puts in the minds of the administration how we should or should not be treated. but the fact that we were already massively in financial distress before the hurricanes. in places like texas or florida, they can outlay the money first and then wait for reimbursements. in the virgin islands and puerto rico, that's not the case. we need the approval from the federal government to be able to rebuild our schools, rebuild public infrastructure. so that not just that our people can lead decently but so we can have economic growth. the -- the roads. the ports. all of those things really impact how we have jobs. what's available for people living in those -- in the territories. >> good to see you in person here. thank you for being with us. congresswoman is a delegate from the u.s. virgin islands. coming up next, the longest serving african-american councilman in south bend, indiana, endorses joe biden for president. he's going to join me live to explain why he's not backing his own mayor pete buttigieg. you are watching msnbc. any comments doug? 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(avo) quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent. bounty, the quicker picker upper. hbut mike bloomberg became thele clasguy whoho mdid good. after building a business that created thousands of jobs he took charge of a city still reeling from 9/11 a three-term mayor who helped bring it back from the ashes bringing jobs and thousands of affordable housing units with it. after witnessing the terrible toll of gun violence... he helped create a movement to protect families across america. and stood up to the coal lobby and this administration to protect this planet from climate change. and now, he's taking on... him. to rebuild a country and restore faith in the dream that defines us. where the wealthy will pay more in taxes and the middle class get their fair share. everyone without health insurance can get it and everyone who likes theirs keep it. and where jobs won't just help you get by, but get ahead. and on all those things mike blomberg intends to make good. jobs creator. leader. problem solver. mike bloomberg for president. i'm mike bloomberg and i approve this message. while mayor pete buttigieg has seen a surge in battleground state polling, a recent poll reveals his support from african-americans who are a key voting block in the democratic party is at 4%. that's actually up. and now, a councilman from his own city, south bend, indiana, is endorsing former vice president joe biden instead. councilman oliver davis shared his reasoning with politico. quote, when you're flying in the middle of the storm, you want to make sure you have steady, experienced leadership. and when asked if mayor buttigieg could win the general election given his lack of support from communities of color, davis replied, i doubt it. i sincerely doubt it. oliver davis, the south bend councilman joins me now. he recently ran in south bend's democratic primary to succeed mayor buttigieg, who is not seeking another term. oliver, thank you for joining us. tell me why -- i mean, i totally get why you might like joe biden more than pete buttigieg. but oliver davis's endorsement is a very big deal because you are a city councilman in south bend, indiana. tell me why it's important for you to have done that. >> it's important for me to have done that and thank you for allowing me to be here with you. it's important for me to have done that because of the fact that we need to tell the story. we need to tell the story of what's behind many of the challenges that we have with the douglas plan and other issues like that. and how i believe vice president biden would be the one to help lead us. like i said, we in the storm. and we have to have steady leadership at this present time. i appreciate mayor pete. but we have to continue to move forward. >> do you -- is -- is there something about mayor pete that you specifically don't like? or you just happen to like joe biden better? >> this is not a personal issue at all. i have worked with mayor pete. we have helped build up the south bend downtown. we have helped build up the parks. we have worked together on many issues. and that's why it was so shocking to me that here we have been working together. i know a lot of people say, well, y'all have been adversariys. i've been doing my role as a legislator in terms of the oversight. so that's just the regular nature of the executive branch and the legislative branch. but the key thing here is how can we promote a douglas plan without that having started in the city of south bend? >> the douglas plan is what pete buttigieg is putting forward as a plan to economically lift up african-americans. what are you not -- you don't have an issue with the plan. you actually think it's a good idea. you're just saying mayor pete hasn't done that. >> well, a couple of things with that. this is thanksgiving time and i'm the only swon in my family o have sisters. and tomorrow at thanksgiving, if i were to go to the women of my family, my sisters and the other women and say, i have a women's plan for the davis family that is based on grandma and this women's plan is going to be how you all run. and i have sat down with all of my -- i have a doctorate, masters, and all this education from all these different universities. this is the women's plan and i'm going to call it the rosa davis plan based on grandma. my sisters would look at me like i'm crazy. and would i get thanksgiving dinner? i don't think so. i'd be lucky to get a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. is he the one to talk about that? that's where you see people in south carolina and others have said let's look at your record. are you the one to bring us this? even though i would be my sister's brother, the fact is i'm going to bring up a plan for the women of the family? and i'm only going to consult -- i haven't consulted with them? we have worked together and this plan should've been started in south bend. it should've been started throughout indiana before you launch it to the whole national scene. and that's the concern. we've worked together more than what people have said. like i said, eight years. and in your book that you talked about back in 2011 when you talk about how to speak to money. you talked about you have to understand that language. and you need to do it now. and how can you understand the language when you haven't necessarily been representing the people that you need to do it? >> oliver, it's a good way to shut me up. quoting from my own book. you win for that. come to my place for thanksgiving. you are definitely getting more than a peanut butter jelly sandwich. oliver davis, city councilman in south bend, indiana. thank you for joining us today. appreciate that. >> thank you and happy thanksgiving to you. >> to you, sir, and to your sisters, please give the man proper food. i want to bring in ra shad robinson. he's also the host of the new podcast voting while black. and you're saying, rashad, that right now it's more than maybe just a pete buttigieg issue. that -- you're saying there are some issues that the democratic party has got to come to terms with, with respect to some of the stuff oliver's talking about. really doing things for black voters who many black voters have felt they've been taken advantage of by the party. >> well, they have. black voters have been taken advantage of. elections come the week or the month before the election, they talk a lot about what they're going to do. and then we don't actually hear from the candidates often times after that. you know, the reason why we've structured our voting while black podcast, not simply about the what in terms of the list of priorities or things the candidates want to push. but actually talking about the how. because quite frankly, the -- whether or not we vote for biden or bernie or harris or booker or whoever doesn't mean you're going to get their healthcare plan. whatever they can provide actually is not just about policy. it's about power. their ability to work with communities and movements. who they're going to push past. i mean, so much of what stands in the way of true racial justice, of true sort of change in this country is not simply about bringing people together. it's going to be about pushing past the forces that far too often, the profiteers that have stood in the way of racial justice. and so if -- i'm sorry -- if we just get a list of priorities, then what we end um wip with ist a conversation almost like we're going to give people recess or pizza every day or things like that, that actually have no meaning in the how. >> talk to me about the pete buttigieg issue. there was a piece in the root that was entitled "buttigieg is a lying mf." it called him a liar in regard to his comments about black children in america's education system. accused him of lying about education in minority neighborhoods. buttigieg called the author and -- and they had some kind of conversation about this. it felt like it's getting serious in terms of african-americans not saying i'm not really interested in him. i don't really get him. but things that oliver was just saying. that there's some feeling that he actually's either missing the point or hasn't done something he should've. is that fair? and is that true? >> i think there's a lot to that. and him and his campaign would be good to actually listen. i've talked to mayor pete a number of times. he came on the podcast. i've tried to give him both advice behind the scenes and out front. and the thing that can often times come across with mayor pete is he's the type of person that says all the right things. sort of maybe in your racial sensitivity training at work. but then when the rubber hits the road, you don't actually know if they're going to do the right thing. they may say the right thing but not actually execute on the right thing. and he is the mayor of the fourth largest city in indiana. a city that a lot of people probably couldn't point to on the map. and so black people, which have been the base and the core of the political party, are probably asking themselves why? how did he rise so quickly in the polls? is it a priority for white voters in the democratic party that a candidate be -- have a deep understanding of racial justice? a commitment to racial justice and a track record actually working on racial justice. and when someone can rise up so quickly in a party that is fueled by black votes and black organizing but not have a relationship with the community. folks are asking are we being taken advantage of? mayor pete has an option. to dig in. he is a young man. he's going to be on the national stage for a long time. but a white millennial should have black friends and if you are a white millennial running for president, you should be able to give me the black people that you went to college with. you come from a city that's 30% black or 30% of color. you should have relationships. you should be able to talk to us about those folks. and i think like that is the sort of gap that a lot of people are having in terms of words and rhetoric not meeting action and true relationship. >> rashad, good to see you as always. rashad robinson, we need to continue this president. the president of color of change. coming up, a look at the chilling inquiries of white supremacist propaganda online. one of the sources of the hateful material, a man who says he wants to overthrow the u.s. government even though he lives in u.s. government housing. and relies on soup kitchens. you are watching msnbc. kitchens you are watching msnbc and i'll tell you some important things to know about medicare. first, it doesn't pay for everything. say this pizza... 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>> do you got any better ones? >> james mason is a lifelong neo-nazi. he might not look dangerous, but he's on the radar of u.s. and foreign intelligence. mason's disturbing writings which advocate for the overthrow of the government and glorify hitler and charles manson were compiled into a book called "siege." the anti-demmedication league describes it as a blueprint for violence. >> it's essentially white supremacy on steroids. >> in the meantime mason was convicted of menacing using a deadly weapon in 1994. but in 2017 according to the anti-defamation league, members of a new neo-nazi group reappropriated the book and made it required reading for members. >> those who embrace each culture advocate for the most violence, the most destruction, and the most clandestine approach to targeting your victims. >> individuals linked to this group have allegedly carried out at least five murders in two years. they have been arrested for weapons possession and bomb plots. mason says he's not a part of the group. and while he has not been charged in connection with these crimes. >> james mason is a key figure within this movement and this sub culture. he's put on a pedestal along with timothy mcveigh or andyefrs brevac. >> officiawe wanted to intervie not to proliferate his disturbing ideology but to press him on the ways he inspires violence. nbc's denver affiliate kusa. >> a lot of people take your words and they're acting violent based on your words. >> if they were acting on my words they wouldn't be doing the things they are doing throwing their lives away. i say, and here i am talking to you, but i say don't do it. but if you're going to do it, for god's sake, do it right. >> that's a pretty bold statement. >> well, i've said it to the fbi. i've said it to denver detectives. it's nothing illegal and only makes sense. >> do you endorse violence by proxy? >> i am simply saying that we have a society that's going crazy. >> denver police declined to comment and the fbi did too citing an ongoing investigation. mason is living in government funded housing. >> i saw you in line at the soup kitchen a few days ago. you are still relying on the charity of others to survive. >> i told you it's guerilla warfare. i am going to do whatever i need to do to survive to go on to fulfill my program to survive. i'm a guerilla warrior. >> what's in your future, mr. mason? >> who knows. >> are you still going to counsel these young men? >> you bet i am. >> anna shektar joins me now. how did this guy, his ideology, end up influencing people in germany and the uk. >> this is really a global program. this man's writings are influencing terrorists, far-right extremists around the world. it's not just the u.k. and germany. but we have talked to intelligence officials around the world who have told us that he is a nexus of these cases that his writings show up amongst the most violent, the most far-right extremists. >> what's so compelling about him to these extremists? >> the he wroe a series of letters in the 1980s and they're kind of one pages or two pages each. you can read it quickly and easily and it's compiled into this big book. he hits on charles manson, adolf hitler. i think that to a certain contrarian mind that is ripe for radicalization, for whatever reason, those digestible newsletter pieces slowly get into someone's head and over time can really influence someone. and he puts it subtlety. it's a subtle push towards violence. then eventually once you get further into the book, it's a violent overthrow of the government. it's moving towards a violent race war. it's chilling. it's extremely disturbing. but we should all know that this is out there and this is influencing young people in the united states and around the world. >> thanks for your reporting on this. coming up, new reporting about president trump and his relationship with his lawyer and friend, rudy giuliani. don't go anywhere. you are watching msnbc. you are watching msnbc ( ♪ ) only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. tylenol®. ithere's my career...'s more to me than hiv. my cause... and creating my dream home. i'm a work in progress. so much goes into who i am. hiv medicine is one part of it. prescription dovato is for adults who are starting hiv-1 treatment and who aren't resistant to either of the medicines dolutegravir or lamivudine. dovato has 2 medicines in 1 pill to help you reach and then stay undetectable. so your hiv can be controlled with fewer medicines while taking dovato. you can take dovato anytime of day with food or without. don't take dovato if you're allergic to any of its ingredients or if you take dofetilide. if you have hepatitis b, it can change during treatment with dovato and become harder to treat. your hepatitis b may get worse or become life-threatening if you stop taking dovato. so do not stop dovato without talking to your doctor. serious side effects can occur, including allergic reactions, liver problems, and liver failure. life-threatening side effects include lactic acid buildup and severe liver problems. if you have a rash and other symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking dovato and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis b or c. don't use dovato if you plan to become pregnant or during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy since one of its ingredients may harm your unborn baby. your doctor should do a pregnancy test before starting dovato. use effective birth control while taking dovato. the most common side effects are headache, diarrhea, nausea, trouble sleeping, and tiredness. so much goes into who i am and hope to be. ask your doctor if starting hiv treatment with dovato is right for you. i need all the breaks, that i can get. at liberty butchumal- cut. liberty biberty- cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ here, it all starts withello! hi!... how can i help? 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