laden. so it feels like a real possible turning point and i think in this part of the world it will certainly be welcome. >> williams: for perspective and reflection we talk with presidential historian and author dorr rinse kearns goodwin adam gopnik, essayist for the "new yorker" magazine. >> osama's left in our minds a certain uncertainty. what do we know about what he's doing in only a year ago you had folks in washington saying we haven't had any intelligence about him for years. so that uncertainty is now gone. we now can say for ourselves that people like him can be got no matter how safe and we are transfering that uncertainty to ayman al-zawahiri and everybody around him. we're now looking out of their windows wherever they are. they're not in caves. they're looking out of their windows and wondering when does that helicopter come with me? >> williams: we conclude with an interview charlie taped with steve levy of "wired" magazine whose new book is called "in the plex: how google works, shapes, and changes our lives." the biggest challenge is thinking like a small company when it's so big. this has bedeviled the founders since the company started growing at a rapid rate in the early 2000s. >> rose: have to maintain the culture they started with. >> and the nimbleness. the internet is all about getting products out in a big hurry even if they have to be in beta for years. they want their people to feel creative and nonconstrained and not have to answer to middle management. >> presidential leadership, the world today ten years after september 11 and the killing of osama bin laden. and charlie's interview with stef levy all coming up. we can all root for. story no who bes the odds and comes out top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> williams: has landed in turkey on assignment and, of course, our topic, our subject tonight, the events of the past several days starting with news late sunday night of the death of osama bin laden. wer joined first off here tonight by a colleague of mine and a frequent guest on this broadcast, from benghazi, libya, richard engel, our chief foreign correspondent. richard, you and i have spoken many times, including sunday night as it was braking but since the news has breken. one very big question, what has changed in the world that you cover and what has been your home-- the middle east, north afternoon a-- for the better part of the last decade. >> well, it feels like this period of history has a bookend now placed on it. for so many journalists, for so many diplomats, certainly for hundreds of thousands of soldiers this last decade, the war on terrorism, the global war on terrorism, has defined their lives. it has defined american culture. it has defined the american projection of power. it has created an entire core of mercenaries and contractors, if united states has spent over a trillion dollars fighting terrorism-- and, of course, terrorism will continue-- but it does feel that the event that started this off, this entire march into the middle east which was, of course, the attacks of 9/11, are now coming to a close with the death of osama bin laden. so it feels like a real football turning point and i think this part of the world it will certainly be welcome. you know the tensions that have existed, real palpable tension between americans, between the muslim world antagonism, this feeling of us and then. there is a possibility now that the u.s. and this part of the world can move on. >> williams: hearing you say that makes me want to ask how influential was he at the end? tom friedman of the "new york times" talks about the difference between bin laden and bin ladenism. >> he wasn't so influential but the american reaction to him was incredibly influential. the war in afghanistan, the war in iraq, guantanamo, the entire perception of muslims the way they felt that this was the war on terrorism was a war on islam, that if you were from this part of the world and you went to an airport in europe or the united states or applied for a student visa you were looked upon with suspicion and that air of suspicion stemmed from bin laden. stemmed from al qaeda. it wasn't anything he did directly but it was the way the world looked at itself and looked at the islamic world. pastors in the united states who are burning korans. the entire controversy around the mosque in downtown new york city. all of these issues were extensively covered in this part of the world. but what was interesting is over the last few days the focus hasn't been so much on bin laden it's been on all of the revolutions that have been going on from tunisia to here in libya and there is a feeling that this part of the world wants to move on, wants to put this period-- the global war on terrorism, the period of profiling, of an the eggisim in-- behind it. >> williams: richard, then we're left with-- to use two terms of art from the u.s. business community-- the affiliates and the franchises. so long after the death of osama bin laden the al qaeda ethos, the notion and hatreds that have been around forever and still will go on and this al qaeda takes on various new forms. >> yes. the ideology does survive. and i like to think of osama bin laden as basically an evil historian. he is fighting against the united states, not just because the united states has its misguided poll sneeze his opinion toward israel but because the muslim world in... according to bin ladenism has been oppressed by europe, by the united states, really since world war i. and the entire creation of the modern middle east has been to the disadvantage of muslims and to the disadvantage of people who live in the region. and that anger and angst does still exist in the region. bin laden was able to tap into that and specifically turn it towards united states. there are franchises, no doubt. and there's a very active franchise in yemen, there's a very active franchise here in north africa and there are plenty of people who want to rise up within the ranks and to take that leadership role. but osama bin laden was always the center of it all. he was the one who was able to stay alive after all these years organize and certainly inspire this great attack, the attack of 9/11 which was... is still being prized in al qaeda circles and with him going, the prestige of al qaeda takes a tremendous blow. and it also sends a message that the united states doesn't cut and run. that and that's what we heard so many times from bin laden, from other al qaeda leaders that when the u.s. was attacked in lebanon u.s. troops left. when the united states forces of black hawk down were attacked in somalia the u.s. left. and the u.s. didn't give up on its hunt for bin laden and eventually found him in this house and killed him. >> williams: and because you're in benghazi, it probably wouldn't hurt to spend a few minutes and ask you about the current situation there. after all, the news this past weekend when we were at that aforementioned correspondent's diner that there's been so much talk about was that there had been a nato air strike on one of qaddafi's homes. his son saif was killed. moammar qaddafi was apparently home but uninjured. then we didn't hear from him for a couple days. leon panetta confirms he is alive and well. and the other front is that the arming of the rebels, the organizing of the rebels, you're in their headquarter city. so what's the status of things? >> >> the status is... well, as you reported, moammar qaddafi is apparently still alive. he's gone underground, you don't see him anymore and he's feeling increasingly isolate. most of his attacks are focused on the city of misurata which is a horrible scene where the people are clustered in a small enclave in the center of the city. most of misurata will probably have to be completely destroyed and rebuilt and the rebels are trying to organize. there are some advisors on the ground now that are giving them tactical advice. but going back to the global war on terrorism and what this all means, even the mission here in libya has been impacteded i think directly by the events of the last ten years. the united states and nato-- but particularly president obama-- didn't want to go in big into libya partly because it had gotten burned in iraq. the idea was if you go in and you take charge in the occupation and take charge in the topple of a regime then you're stuck with rebuilding it. and that's cost a tremendous amount of money and peres teng. we're still dealing with it in iraq and afghanistan and it was because of that feeling of being gun-shy that the united states opted for a much more conciliatory approach with its nato resolution here where we'll give the rebels some air support some political cover, but they're going to have to do it themselves. so this is a new model for war. iraq was all in and to try and manage the system, afghanistan was all in neither of them went particularly well. this is a "we'll give the rebels an umbrella and see if they can do it themselves." this this succeeds we could be seeing the model for warfare in the post-global war on terrorism era. >> williams: richard, we'll see you on "nbc nightly news". thank you for joining us. >> williams: we continue with our discussion of what's been an eventful week. this afternoon, president obama made his first visit to ground zero since taking office, laying a wreath to honor the victims of 9/11 and meeting privately with the families of those who were killed. vice president biden participated in a ceremony at the pentagon. this, of course, marks the ten-year end of the man hunt for osama bin laden. mastermind behind september 11 and the founder of al qaeda. and with us here around the table to look at all that has happened, presidential misstoreian doris kearns goodwin bobby gauche of "time" magazine. and you're the biggest picture of all three... >> because i studied dead presidents will women i've been thinking of you because you're so good at placing events on the grid of history, how big is the news we received late sunday night? >> i think it will be even bigger in the future than it feels to us right now and it feels pretty big right now. i think there's a lot of reasons for that. number one, america's prestige in the world has been helped by this. the fact that we can do something that we said we were going to do which we've begun to doubt about ourselves proved true and perhaps the biggest thing might be what happens to the president's internal self. when you go through something like there this where you took an enormous risk and the anxiety and tension and w sthood adversity, it's going to make you stronger. he's had the loss of the midterm elections and the success of this. it will deepen him and make him wiser. j.f.k. made the great american university speech after the cuban missile crisis. he said "we have to change our feelings about the cold war." it made him different and it made lincoln different when he sat in the telegraph office with his war secretary that told him that thousands has been killed that day. we may not see it right away but we will see it >> williams: adam, what changed sunday night? >> i'd like to think it's the specter of fear that evaporate add little bit. fear is the terrorist's best weapon. it's not just the damage that you do-- or will risk though that damage happened to be in this city-- but the image of fear that you create because it so out of proportion very often to the real threat that the terrorists can make. and so to suddenly have this face which was kind of uniquely geared to be a kind of charismatic fanatic religious enemy, to have it vanish from the kind of... the pantheon of scary people, i think was terrific. not because threats do not remain. not because we couldn't have another attack tomorrow, all of those things are real but because it removes the threat of frichl this nameless unspeakable dread to the array of real threats we face everyday in the course of ordinary living and that we have to put in the right context. i happen to be... i'm a very unlucky guy. i walk around with a black cloud over my head and i happened to be in london on 7/7 when they had the big terrorist attack and it was very striking at the time that though it was terrifying, people were filled with grief and fear, they weren't paralyzed by those feelings of fear. they were able to understand, articulate, organize in terms of predictable history. >> do you think because they'd been through world war ii and the bombing? >> and the i.r.a. and many other things. >> williams: part of their d.n.a.. >> exactly and they were able to say this is horrible but not unprecedented and it won't paralyze us going on into the future. if it has one affect, that would be a terrific one. that is the death. >> williams: are we still going to be taking shoes off? emptying and drinking our water bottles... >> apparently we're addicted to the meaningless theater of airport security and other kinds of security and clearly that's not something that we'll easily alleviate, but i think that the inner sense... it's very difficult for people, especially for people who didn't live in new york through those years to understand. and by "those years" i mean particularly between about 2001 and 2005 that to understand the kind of should we stay here at all? are we safe? are our kids safe? that kind of fear. it was disproportionate to the real threat as we know now but nonetheless it was there and fear does terrible things to people. it makes people react in terrible and self-destructive ways. terrorism is a kind of autoimmune disease. it gets you your own anti-bodies that attack your public health. attack you from the inside. i hope that that period, at least is over now. >> williams: bobby before we know about the news you wrote this cover story "is america islamophobic." "time" was in the news this week when this cover came out. the magazine pointed out fourth time in history this has happened. what were the others? hitler, saddam... >> abu musab al-zarqawi in iraq and now this. and i was in iraq when we did saddam and also when we did zarqawi. >> williams: so how does this news go back to affect this potential thesis? >> well, i'm a little cautious about that but a great deal will depend now on how the president communicates to americans. i think fact that as adam said that people feel less frightened helps the sort of discussion about muslims and islam in this country but a great deal now depends on what actions follow this step. i think there is something to be taken from the fact-- and the white house has been very particularly about stating this-- that even osama bin laden's got a proper muslim burial. we're not going to see that, but the fact that america took pains to give this man the decent burial after his death, the kind of that effort he never made for his victims is important and i think muslims in this country and around the world will take something from that. but i think just as president bush came out immediately after 9/11 and made it clear to islam was not the enemy, i think that needs to be reinforced by this president, by others in the administration. >> williams: do you agree with what we now know was the president's call not to release the photos? and i have to point out that maybe two hours after that news on the reuters sight up went eight more photos showing three dead victims in pooh pools of blood. more of the interior of the structure and, oh, by the way, the military hardware lead story from the event and that is that it turns out that there was a hereto forsecret stealth black hawk that was disabled. they attempted to blow it up on their way out. they missed the tail section and a lot of the kind of fabric skin and there are worries china in its race to make a similar product is just about to receive a big hand. so back to the photos. do you concur with the white house decision? >> i don't. i don't. i was in iraq when the bodies of uday and qusay, the sons of saddam hussein, when the pictures of their dead bodies... they were cleaned up but they were shown. i was also in iraq when saddam hussein was hung and that video leaked out from spot where he was being hung and there was a lot of alarm expressed that this would send the wrong signal and people would be infuriated and it would lead to attacks. none of those things happened. and i think that the white house is being a little too cautious. that part of the argument that this might incite more violence i don't fully buy. >> i thoroughly disagree in this sense. that the prudential argument might be empty, it's going to cause more violence. i think the moral argument is very strong and i think that it was one of the most distinguished things obama's ever done. because we try to distinguish ourselves. we have to use violence, even liberal states and societies, lincoln was the great exponent of this notion. we have to use violence at times because we live in a violent world. but we use violence as a last resort in necessary of self-defense, not as a first option in national self-assertion. and so restoring that kind of atavistic urge, we got the bad guy and we're going to march around with his head on the a pole, to do all those things, those are the kinds of things the romans did, really does draw a line. and it's so hard to draw a line. we're... we violently just assassinated somebody. it does draw a line between the kind of violence of nationalism and the necessary violence of liberalism. i thought it was an admirable thing to do and a profoundly moral thing to do. >> williams: the president put in the much more basic terms. he said "we're not going to spike the ball in the end zone." >> slightly unfortunate in some ways. >> and i think he also didn't want it to be a trophy where other people would be carrying it around and using it to say "ha ha, this is what we did." it's so amazing to realize how far we've come in expecting this kind of picture. in world war ii it wasn't until the middle of the war that they even allowed a picture in live magazine to show a dead soldier. now we're so accustomed to that kind of violence. i think you're right, not doing in the this time when we're so used to gory pick schurs a good thing. it brings us back to something we have lost. the fact that they thought out those details ahead of time suggests a part of obama's mind-set that's a very comfortable thing to think about. especially way they buried him at sea and knowing that was the proper thing to do. thinking that through even beforehand thigh figured that out. i still can't imagine the anxiety he must have gone through as they were... that picture is so dramatic of them waiting. i mean, i keep thinking and i know i think we've talked about this when f.d.r. was waiting to hear whether the invasion in north africa had worked or not and he's sitting there constantly looking at the phone all day long. finally they say "the phone is ringing for you, it test war secretary" he can hardly hold the phone his hand is so shaky, did i do the right thing by sending it against the generals' advise? the idea he was willing to take this risk, the riskiest of all, they said it was between moderate and excessive risk that it would come out right compared to a drone or just doing more intelligence was a extraordinary thing and must have weighed enormously. those deaths would have been directly on him. it's one thing to send guys off to battle but another to know if our soldiers died he sent them int