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circumstances i can think of where it's been pointed out that something the pm has said is not true. let me ask you a broader point, particularly alastair and adam, but, jon, i'm interested to get you to think back to your experiences in washington and westminster of the daily pressure, adam, that governments try to exert on journalists and news organisations. the idea that that call that came in after emily maitlis monologue, that it wouldn't be unusual for the government to call up the bbc, would it? no, and it's it actually dates back to a certain extent, in my experience, to alistair�*s period, where there was a more hands on dealing with the media and a willingness to take up complaints, which i don't think we necessarily experienced either, when gus 0'donnell was representing jon major or previously with bernard ingham. i think we knew where they came from, but they were more
doing a hit on the today programme? no, ithink that, yeah, i mean, listen, it's as as you know... come on, jon, put yourself out there, stop hiding behind the screen and the camera, give your life. i think i'm getting life coaching live on radio four from alastair campbell. yeah, my philosophy of broadcasting is it's not about me. i know there are some big egos around here, but. but isn't there but isn't there isn't there a question just quickly in the last few minutes is what alistair is doing with the rest of politics, jon and adam and nosheen, i would say all of your products the new show and times radio, the guardian podcast, the global podcast, their news products is, is what alastair and rory stewart are doing. you consider that news? i think that alastair and rory, i think that alistair�*s and rory�*s podcast is a fantastic listen. they take you behind the scenes of politics and how decisions are made and having been in the room when decisions
well... ..or across most of the media. well, you're right. you won't hear the word "liar" on the bbc, though i would say that there are many circumstances i can think of where it's been pointed out that something the prime minister has said is not true. let me ask you a broader point, particularly alastair and adam, but, jon, i'm interested to get you to think back to your experiences in washington and westminster of the daily pressure, adam, that governments try to exert on journalists and news organisations. the idea that that call that came in after emily maitlis monologue, that it wouldn't be unusual for the government to call up the bbc, would it? no, and it's it actually dates back to a certain extent, in my experience, to alistair's period, where there was a more hands—on dealing with the media and a willingness to take up complaints, which i don't think we necessarily experienced either, when gus o'donnell
was representing john major or previously with bernard ingham. i think we knew where they came from, but they were more entitled to see that as part of the weather. now, in defence of alastair and peter mandelson who were also associated with that, yes, they were professional media handlers, but they were also people who were prepared and sought out exposing their principals, their cabinet ministers, the prime minister and all the others made them available. the problem now is we've got media handlers who are basically trying to shutdown access for journalists to the principals. and so we've got the worst of both worlds. we've got both the, kind of, you know, thick of it type of news management and pressure on journalists and even less access for the journalists, and therefore less access for the public to really scrutinise what the politicians are doing. and jon, before we talk about the podcast and how this might change it, in your experience as a bbc journalist, was there ever
a situation where you were told to change something because it would in some way appease the government or please the government? whichever government we're talking about? a long time ago, yeah. i was i mean, you know, it's a long time since i was a political correspondent. i mean, you're going back. but i remember saying something about... i was asked to change something because it was thought that it would make a political debate between the party leaders more difficult. and so there was interference. and i complained about it, because i thought it was you know, i think there should be a very strict line between the b and the c. ie i'm a broadcaster, i'm not part of the corporation. right. and myjob is not to write a script that assists something, but this was a very long time ago. so that was a while ago. but alastair, you also tried to exert pressure on the bbc on a daily basis. did you ever feel that it was trying to appease you, to use the verb that emily maitlis chose in her speech? no, on the contrary. i think that, you know, i don't think i complained
a result of pretty sustained political conditioning, if you like. i think that what you do on the news channel, actually, has gone a long way to rectifying some of this, because actually you take issues, you do them in detail. whereas i think what happens with a lot of political coverage in particular, when you think how many hours of output there are, my complaint with the bbc generally is that i think it comes through a prism that is created by a right wing press, and i think that has always been the case, but i think it's got worse since brexit. and adam made a very good point there about politicians, people can make up their minds, provided that the lies are called out. and i have to say, i think withjohnson�*s premiership, and i think we've seen the same with liz truss in her campaign, the lies are not being called out and are not being called out on a systematic basis. jon, do you recognise, as someone who was based in washington for the last part of your bbc career, the experience within the bbc that alastair is describing?
is a fantastic listen. they take you behind the scenes of politics and how decisions are made and having been in the room when decisions are made. and i think that, you know, it's not one or the other. it's not a zero sum game, podcasting. i think that, you know, adam i've known for years. alastair i've known for years. you know, iwill listen to their podcast because i'm interested in the way they do things and i think they're, you know, alistair is a kind of incredibly insightful. adam, brilliant journalist. there's room for all of us. and i think that the more we you know, this is a wonderful opportunity to talk about how fabulous podcasting is and how it should grow. but i don't think it'sjust podcasting. ithink, you know, i listened to the news agent's today. the first one. it was informative about a fairly niche subject for a british audience, to be honest about donald trump i mean on the bbc. more than niche! donald trump is potentially the next president of the united states. yeah, i know. but a lot of people don't care about the next president
alastair�*s rest is politics podcast with rory stewart, you're sharing an awful lot about your life, jon and nosheen, are you comfortable with stepping into a broadcast environment or a podcasting environment where you need to perhaps give a bit more, jon, than you would have done doing a hit on the today programme? no, ithink that, yeah, i mean, listen, it's as as you know... come on, jon, put yourself out there, stop hiding behind the screen and the camera, give your life. i think i'm getting life coaching live on radio four from alastair campbell. yeah, my philosophy of broadcasting - is it's not about me. i know there are some big egos around here, but. i but isn't there but isn't there isn't there a question just quickly in the last few minutes is what alistair is doing with the rest of politics, jon and adam and nosheen, i would say all of your products, in different ways. the new show and times radio, the guardian podcast, the global podcast, their news products is, is what alastair and rory stewart are doing. you consider that news? i think that alastair and rory, i think that alastair�*s and rory�*s podcast
tony blair was in opposition, and there was a certain obsession about spin doctors beating up the media. and i kind of thought it was all lunacy. i mean, you know, alastair had a job to do and jonathan haslam, when he was withjon major and gus 0'donnell, had a job to do. and they did theirjob to the best of their ability. and they're going to say, "i think you got the story wrong." and you say, thank you very much for, you know, and you listen to why and you think, well, do i believe that? do i think that squares with the the contacts i've had with various people? if it does, i'll take it. and if it doesn't, i will ignore it. i think much more serious today is the problem we have with fake news, where absolute falsehood can take hold via social media that i think whether a spin doctor is a bit aggressive or not seems to me kind of yesterday's story. and on that point, i should say thatjamie angus, a former senior bbc news executive, on the issue of emily maitlis�* monologue for which the bbc, the bbc retracted, said senior managers and news could see immediately why it couldn't be allowed to stand and they would have withdrawn it, even if number ten had not complained. now, on the issue. hold on now, alastair, i'm
from, but they were more entitled to see that as part of the weather. now, in defence of alastair and peter mandelson who were also associated with that, yes, they were professional media handlers, but they were also people who were prepared and sought out exposing their principals, their cabinet ministers, the prime minister and all the others made them available. the problem we got now is we've got media handlers who are basically trying to shut down access for journalists to the principals. and so we've got the worst of both worlds. we've got both the, kind of, you know, thick of it type of news management and pressure on journalists and even less access for the journalists, and therefore less access for the public to really scrutinise what the politicians are doing. and jon, before we talk about the podcast and how this might change it, in your experience as a bbc journalist, was there ever a situation where you were told to change something because it would in some way