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Morning Joe

donald trump, by being too tough on donald trump, by, well, calling a fascist a fascist, drawing parallels with previous fascist governments where the parallels fit really snugly. my criticism of the media is actually on the other sideallow every day. nikki haley said what she said about is civil war. what she didn't say about the civil war, it was written up about four or five times. people are still talking about it. >> yeah. >> donald trump says abraham lincoln screwed up. he could have beaten him in a landslide in an election, and lincoln should have negotiated away slavery. what do we hear? nothing. >> less news. >> it's less news about all of it. you're talking about how we need to cover donald trump. >> yeah. >> you say, we need to challenge others to prove what they say and to note when they fall short. to use language that people of differing views will find hard to deny.

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Morning Joe

be a dictator. do not worry. that's not actually what i meant." >> right. >> it's given the biden campaign ammo to go after him. but his campaign is retribution, coming after you for his personal grievances. we know donald trump can't stay disciplined. the second he goes to the rallies that i'll be at at iowa, sure heilemann will be at in iowa, he'll be back to the trump we know who is saying all of these ridiculous things. that will help the biden campaign as they continue to draw this contrast, but i think it'll make voters sort of remember, this is what your choice is. you could have trump. you could have trump-like in desantis. or have a proper alternative like nikki haley who hasn't alienated the maga voters, though she has room to grow to attract more of them to her side. >> steve, the media has been criticized for obsessing on

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Morning Joe

some will deny it anyway but we can make it hard. be prepared to weather criticism, that is inevitable whatever we say. sounds like old journalism there. i think the difference is that you have donald trump and trumpists and the propaganda, the big lies they keep moving around. george orwell said fascists, pretty good at lying. pretty great at propaganda, when he was comparing them to marxists. it takes a special talent. talk about the importance of pinning people down. >> i think that's vital. i think that is old school journalism. some people say it calls for a new approach to journalism. it calls for a better approach to the standards we have. you talk about speaking falsely. you need to hear what a candidate says. you need to hear what donald trump says. i've interviewed donald trump. i'd interview him again if he'd say yes. whatever he has to say has to be presented in context. i think we have to try to focus

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Morning Joe

the "times" opinion page had recently, where half the republicans who were talking said that, look, a conviction is what changes things for me. we don't want a criminal in the oval office. we shall see. >> we'll see. >> exactly. >> and he keeps saying things that work to his detriment. i mean, the biden campaign actually -- biden campaign sort of smirks at the democrats that are whining. they really know, and i think they're right, yes, they have to talk about what joe biden has done for america. but, also, they have to run donald trump's clips. >> yeah. >> it's what they have to do. donald trump saying, "i'm the one who terminated roe v. wade." the other night in just a powder puff debate, interview on fox news, even there, he blew it. he once again said, "nobody could terminate roe v. wade.

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Morning Joe

continued and then he cut him off. he let him go for a while, and the attorney general's office didn't object either. >> the judge suggested he'd make a decision by january 31st. >> yup. >> this trump rant yesterday, what role, if any, could it play in weighing in on what the judge decides? i heard other lawyers suggest that, in a way, by letting trump speak, this defangs a possible appeal opportunity for trump? >> there are a number of instances along the way that could have led to further arguments on appeal, right, by former president trump, that he wasn't given an opportunity to present evidence. there are arguments about hiss experts. this is another argument he could have made. i want to point out to you and our viewers how unusual it is for a party with a competent team of lawyers to get up in their own defense during a closing argument, particularly when they skip an opportunity to testimony. closing arguments are not supposed to be testimony. to the extent that former president trump yesterday said

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Morning Joe

had to put it somewhere, we'd still put it on donald trump winning the nomination. >> i would hedge a little over here if nikki haley came in, you know -- if it was, like, 43 to 30 in iowa and she won outright in new hampshire. she has to win in new hampshire, and i think she can. >> second is not good enough anymore. she can't be second. you have to beat the guy that's king of the hill. if she beats him, and i think she can beat him badly, again, with history as its guide -- i mean, new hampshire doesn't do anything halfway, you know? again, we just see these massive swings at the end. if she gets it, the calendar actually gives her, i think, an outside chance. alexi, i'm curious your thoughts on donald trump and all the chaos that's going on around him right now. whether it is the courtroom decision that is going to be made in the middle of this process. chances are good he'll be liable for between $250 million to $300

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Morning Joe

hampshire if what a lot of new hampshire experts, political experts, if they're right about what they think is going to happen on the ground. nikki haley is going to continue her momentum, possibly beat donald trump. we've seen donald trump melt down after he lost to ted cruz, after he lost, of course, to joe biden. that's a month of melting down. you have a decision by this judge that could bankrupt him. we don't know how much money he has. it could put him out of business in new york. you'll have a month of spiraling before the south carolina primary. i'm telling you, for people that say it's over, i understand. it's -- but i think there is an outside shot. maybe it is 10%, maybe 15%, that things continue breaking against donald trump. march doesn't get any easier for him with judge chutkan. >> right. >> very good chance of him being convicted by the end of the month. a lot coming at him.

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Morning Joe

saying, polls don't vote. once we have some people who have voted in iowa, then we've had some people who voted in new hampshire, we may get a better sense of whether nikki haley's rise is a flutter or whether it is serious and she could be a contender for donald trump. my sense is that iowa, which barack obama won, of course, in 2008, has become very much more conservative. the college educated voters from left the state. it's become much more trump country. you go to new hampshire, which likes to buck the trend from iowa, obviously has more independent voters. they may now go to nikki haley. she may pick up chris christie's voters, as well. she has to do a very good second. she has to come in quite close to donald trump to get any momentum, then going to south carolina where she's 30 points behind. >> right. >> look, if we had to put our -- pull all the massive resources we have from our piggybacks and

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Morning Joe

think, as the more they watch, the more they just kind of scratch their heads and say, "this guy should not be our president." >> that's why team biden is not -- they're just not as concerned as everybody on the outside. >> how trump views the world, when he sees a problem, he makes it bigger. >> right. >> bringing in rumsfeld. >> he makes it bigger in ways that haven't rebounded against him, mostly in his role to the republican nomination which i still think is mostly likely. but it complicates his life once that is over and he is in a general election. that's what the biden people are waiting for. as you say, democrats are not going to vote for trump. but there is a big swath of america in the middle that aren't that happy with joe biden but haven't spent a lot of time looking at donald trump. >> exactly. >> in this election, they will be. >> he's been off the airwaves for most of the last year. i mean, now he's coming back and people are remembering what it was like. i mean, i think there was a lot

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Morning Joe

morning. you know how important the narrative is coming out of this race, how much that drives things into new hampshire and how beneficial that could be for her. >> well, really, the calendar breaks nikki haley's way. if you look at the gap between new hampshire and south carolina, if things go the way nikki haley believes they can go and go the way a lot of new hampshire experts are saying, that nikki haley could have a big win in new hampshire, donald trump has the loser sort of label around him for a month. we know that will not go well for him. john heilemann, thank you so much. we'll see you. now, monday, we want to see you outside in the 15 below. trust me, trust me, we've all been out there. with wind chill, it'll be at least minus 45. we want to see the jacket. we want to see the whole broadcast news thing like we sent you to the lucian islands.

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