this refer to some passages briefly in thisjust — refer to some passages briefly in thisjust to introduce refer to some passages briefly in this just to introduce the refer to some passages briefly in thisjust to introduce the question that i_ thisjust to introduce the question that i would like to ask you, having tooked _ that i would like to ask you, having looked at _ that i would like to ask you, having looked at this document, and one of the document very briefly. firstly we have — the document very briefly. firstly we have the key points. obviously the welsh — we have the key points. obviously the welsh first minister was present as wett _ the welsh first minister was present as well. first bullet point, pub cobra — as well. first bullet point, pub cobra expected sunday afternoon. further— cobra expected sunday afternoon. further down the page, different jurisdictions may move at different paces— jurisdictions may move at different paces depending on the progress of the disease. practicalities, for example — the disease. practicalities, for example different school calendars, but this _ example different school calendars, but this does not undermine for natiohs— but this does not undermine for nations approach. then if we go to the penultimate bullet point, keeping course stay—at—home message. gove wiii— keeping course stay—at—home message. gove will reinforce with prime minister _ gove will reinforce with prime minister. recognition that different pace of— minister. recognition that different pace of change reflects devolution and pace — pace of change reflects devolution and pace of disease, he will make sure we _ and pace of disease, he will make sure we have time to contribute to cobra _ sure we have time to contribute to cobra discussions. then finally, will cobra discussions. then finally, wiit talk— cobra discussions. then finally, will talk 2pm about stay—at—home narrative — will talk 2pm about stay—at—home narrative. it is obvious from that document, — narrative. it is obvious from that document, just to confirm that the devotved _ document, just to confirm that the devolved administrations wanted to stay with— devolved administrations wanted to stay with the stay—at—home message at that— stay with the stay—at—home message at that time. if i can now ask for this next— at that time. if i can now ask for this next document to be pulled up please _ this is a record that has been compiled _ this is a record that has been compiled of the cobra meeting on the 10th of— compiled of the cobra meeting on the 10th of may. this is the record compited _ 10th of may. this is the record compiled by the commune occasions director— compiled by the commune occasions director for— compiled by the commune occasions director for the welsh government. this record. — director for the welsh government. this record, if i can ask to go to the third — this record, if i can ask to go to the third page of this record, and 'ust the third page of this record, and just very— the third page of this record, and just very briefly, some of the observations that were made. the issue _ observations that were made. the issue about messaging relating to the change of message from stay—at—home to stay alert was raised — stay—at—home to stay alert was raised by— stay—at—home to stay alert was raised by the first minister for scotland — raised by the first minister for scotland but as we know, it was a matter _ scotland but as we know, it was a matter where there were concerns from _ matter where there were concerns from all _ matter where there were concerns from all the devolved administrations, and she has raised the point, _ administrations, and she has raised the point, and at the top of page three. _ the point, and at the top of page three. we — the point, and at the top of page three, we see prime minister responded that nothing will appear in scotland that will cut across the stay—at—home messages. then in the next we _ stay—at—home messages. then in the next we see _ stay—at—home messages. then in the next we see that the uk director of communications makes some observations, i think it is fair to say, _ observations, i think it is fair to say, a _ observations, i think it is fair to say, a summary of what he says is he summarising — say, a summary of what he says is he summarising the merits of the change to stay— summarising the merits of the change to stay alert. he says stay alert encourages people to change behaviour which has pulled well. monday— behaviour which has pulled well. monday and tuesday we will start natiohai_ monday and tuesday we will start national advertising to start to change — national advertising to start to change behaviours. then if we look a little further — change behaviours. then if we look a little further on, it refers in the next _ little further on, it refers in the next to — little further on, it refers in the next to the _ little further on, it refers in the next to the first minister for scotland _ next to the first minister for scotland reiterating that they would not be _ scotland reiterating that they would not be moving to the stay alert message — not be moving to the stay alert message and looking for assurances that there _ message and looking for assurances that there would be no paid ads on tv irr— that there would be no paid ads on tv in scotland. this would undermine messages _ tv in scotland. this would undermine messages of the scottish government. prime _ messages of the scottish government. prime minister said they will de cohftict — prime minister said they will de conflict messaging as for as possible. we can move forward as four nations. now is the moment to recatibrate — four nations. now is the moment to recalibrate messaging. then a further— recalibrate messaging. then a further text relating to what you then went on to say. the question i would _ then went on to say. the question i would like — then went on to say. the question i would like to ask arising out of looking — would like to ask arising out of looking at— would like to ask arising out of looking at those passages is, as you can recall. _ looking at those passages is, as you can recall, what did the uk government do to make sure that the change _ government do to make sure that the change of— government do to make sure that the change of message took account of the fact— change of message took account of the fact that the devolved administrations were not changing their message. they wanted to stay with stay—at—home as the main message — with stay—at—home as the main message and wanted the plan to d cohflict _ message and wanted the plan to d conflict amount to? ifi message and wanted the plan to d conflict amount to?— message and wanted the plan to d conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank ou conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank you very _ conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank you very much _ conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank you very much for _ conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank you very much for taking - conflict amount to? if i may say so, thank you very much for taking us l thank you very much for taking us through all this. i think you are rather eloquently demonstrating one of the problems we had and you are perfectly correct that there was a diversions in the message. in in the advice. in england certainly, we felt that the people had been through a lot, there has been a huge sacrifice effort by the public to get the r level down below one. people needed to know whether they should go back to work or not. we wanted to have a message to allow people to go back to work if they could and to get things going. the difficulty was, as you rightly say, that in other parts of the uk, they had a slightly different approach. it was hard to get a message that everybody could agree upon. the messaue everybody could agree upon. the message was _ everybody could agree upon. the message was not agreed upon, that is cleai’, _ message was not agreed upon, that is clear. isn't— message was not agreed upon, that is clear. isn't it? — message was not agreed upon, that is clear, isn't it? there was not agreement about the move to stay alert _ agreement about the move to stay alert the — agreement about the move to stay alert. the devolved administration is, as— alert. the devolved administration is, as you — alert. the devolved administration is, as you have confirmed, wanted to stay with. _ is, as you have confirmed, wanted to stay with, stay—at—home. my question is, what _ stay with, stay—at—home. my question is, what did _ stay with, stay—at—home. my question is, what did the uk government do, did it _ is, what did the uk government do, did it plough ahead with stay alert, regardless, with very little adjustment, or did it do all that it could _ adjustment, or did it do all that it could sensibly to make sure there was: _ could sensibly to make sure there was, and — could sensibly to make sure there was, and you have emphasised the need _ was, and you have emphasised the need for— was, and you have emphasised the need for clarity, but there was as much _ need for clarity, but there was as much clarity as possible so that people — much clarity as possible so that people who lived in each of the four nations— people who lived in each of the four nations new what applied to them? to the uk _ nations new what applied to them? to the uk government to do all it could sensibly— the uk government to do all it could sensibly do— the uk government to do all it could sensibly do in order to bring about that outcome? the sensibly do in order to bring about that outcome?— sensibly do in order to bring about that outcome? the difficulty was, i think we tried _ that outcome? the difficulty was, i think we tried as _ that outcome? the difficulty was, i think we tried as much _ that outcome? the difficulty was, i think we tried as much as - that outcome? the difficulty was, i think we tried as much as we - that outcome? the difficulty was, i | think we tried as much as we could, to forge a consensus. i think it would be fair to say that certainly in scotland and wales, i am not certain about northern ireland, but certainly in scotland and wales, there was, throughout the pandemic under the labour government and the snp in scotland, a general, a greater degree of caution and a greater degree of caution and a greater desire to keep within lockdown measures than there was in the uk government as a whole. i sympathise with that, i understood why people felt like that and i think that went with the grain of a lot of public opinion. but we also had to try to reflect the fact that we got the r level down below one and there was no point in doing that unless you were going to try to, not just to save lives, but also to take advantage of the freedom that that gave us. this is a perfect example of the difficulty that we had, of having public health messaging that was divergent across the uk. it would have been better... it would have been better to have a unified approach, though i appreciate, and from all the questioning that i have had, illegitimate sensitivities that raises in the da is. we have got to find a way of doing this that does not tread on people chose but produces a unified answer. the uk government _ produces a unified answer. the uk government itself _ produces a unified answer. the uk government itself needed - produces a unified answer. the uk government itself needed to - produces a unified answer. the uk government itself needed to be i government itself needed to be clear. _ government itself needed to be clear, didn't it?— government itself needed to be clear, didn't it? you would agree with that? _ clear, didn't it? you would agree with that? the _ clear, didn't it? you would agree with that? the uk _ clear, didn't it? you would agree with that? the uk government i clear, didn't it? you would agree i with that? the uk government was clear. the problem was that within the uk, we have, under our devolved settlement, we have the perfect right of people to enhance policies that were divergent. i’m right of people to enhance policies that were divergent.— that were divergent. i'm afraid everybody _ that were divergent. i'm afraid everybody is — that were divergent. i'm afraid everybody is running _ that were divergent. i'm afraid everybody is running over- that were divergent. i'm afraid everybody is running over and | that were divergent. i'm afraid i everybody is running over and we cannot— everybody is running over and we cannot have _ everybody is running over and we cannot have too _ everybody is running over and we cannot have too long _ everybody is running over and we cannot have too long a _ everybody is running over and we cannot have too long a day- everybody is running over and we cannot have too long a day to - everybody is running over and we| cannot have too long a day to day everybody is running over and we i cannot have too long a day to day so everybody _ cannot have too long a day to day so everybody else — cannot have too long a day to day so everybody else coming _ cannot have too long a day to day so everybody else coming afterwards, i everybody else coming afterwards, please _ everybody else coming afterwards, please stick — everybody else coming afterwards, please stick to _ everybody else coming afterwards, please stick to the _ everybody else coming afterwards, please stick to the time—limit. - iam i am instructed iam instructed by i am instructed by anwar company on behalf— i am instructed by anwar company on behalf of— i am instructed by anwar company on behalf of the scottish covid—19 bereaved. in his evidence to the inquiry, — bereaved. in his evidence to the inquiry, lord listerwas bereaved. in his evidence to the inquiry, lord lister was asked about a chain— inquiry, lord lister was asked about a chain of— inquiry, lord lister was asked about a chain of e—mails where the first minister— a chain of e—mails where the first minister nicola sturgeon was requesting a telephone call with you and this— requesting a telephone call with you and this was on the 5th of march 2020. _ and this was on the 5th of march 2020, an— and this was on the 5th of march 2020, an important day because it was the _ 2020, an important day because it was the day that covid—19 was added to the _ was the day that covid—19 was added to the list— was the day that covid—19 was added to the list of notifiable diseases, so it was— to the list of notifiable diseases, so it was a — to the list of notifiable diseases, so it was a landmark day. an answer to asking _ so it was a landmark day. an answer to asking why there was a reluctance to asking why there was a reluctance to have _ to asking why there was a reluctance to have the — to asking why there was a reluctance to have the first minister contact you. _ to have the first minister contact you. lord — to have the first minister contact you, lord lister gave the following evidence, — you, lord lister gave the following evidence, and this is from the transcript _ evidence, and this is from the transcript of the 7th of november 2023, _ transcript of the 7th of november 2023, page 105. as you can see from the exchange of e—mails, the meeting took place _ the exchange of e—mails, the meeting took place so i certainly wasn't trying — took place so i certainly wasn't trying to— took place so i certainly wasn't trying to block that meeting taking place _ trying to block that meeting taking place but _ trying to block that meeting taking place but there was quite a lot of tension _ place but there was quite a lot of tension between the prime minister and the _ tension between the prime minister and the first minister. they had no real personal relationship, any kind, _ real personal relationship, any kind, otherthan, ithink, they generally— kind, otherthan, ithink, they generally didn't like each other very much. i would like to ask, is this a _ very much. i would like to ask, is this a fair— very much. i would like to ask, is this a fair characterisation of the relationship between you and the first minister of scotland, nicola sturgeon? | first minister of scotland, nicola sturaeon? . , ., . first minister of scotland, nicola sturteon? ., , ., ., ., sturgeon? i am sorry to hear that he said that. actually, _ sturgeon? i am sorry to hear that he said that. actually, i _ sturgeon? i am sorry to hear that he said that. actually, i had _ sturgeon? i am sorry to hear that he said that. actually, i had no - sturgeon? i am sorry to hear that he said that. actually, i had no ill- said that. actually, i had no ill will whatsoever towards the first minister of scotland when i have talked to her, we have got on very well and had a friendly relationship and as i think you just said, we did indeed have a meeting. it is and as i think you just said, we did indeed have a meeting.— indeed have a meeting. it is odd that such a _ indeed have a meeting. it is odd that such a close _ indeed have a meeting. it is odd that such a close and _ indeed have a meeting. it is odd that such a close and senior - indeed have a meeting. it is odd i that such a close and senior person working _ that such a close and senior person working for— that such a close and senior person working for you got that impression? well. _ working for you got that impression? well. i_ working for you got that impression? well, i think, working for you got that impression? well, ithink, let working for you got that impression? well, i think, let us put it this way, much as i love the snp, politically, there was a certain amount of toing and froing between the snp and me as the prime minister. i would the snp and me as the prime minister. iwould not like the snp and me as the prime minister. i would not like to produce everything they have said about me over the years. weill. produce everything they have said about me over the years. well, let us 'ust about me over the years. well, let usjust focus _ about me over the years. well, let us just focus on _ about me over the years. well, let us just focus on these _ about me over the years. well, let usjust focus on these particular i us just focus on these particular guestions — us just focus on these particular questions. you say you had plenty of opportunity— questions. you say you had plenty of opportunity to meet leaders of the devolved _ opportunity to meet leaders of the devolved administration but as my bernard _ devolved administration but as my bernard friend has already pointed out to _ bernard friend has already pointed out to you. — bernard friend has already pointed out to you, between may and october, you had _ out to you, between may and october, you had not— out to you, between may and october, you had not if it were to be correct that you _ you had not if it were to be correct that you had — you had not if it were to be correct that you had a certain degree of reluctance to meet with the first minister. — reluctance to meet with the first minister, does that play into the fact that — minister, does that play into the fact that there were so few meetings? i fact that there were so few meetings?— fact that there were so few meetinus? ~ . ., ., meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons — meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for _ meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for all _ meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for all this _ meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for all this quite - meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for all this quite a i meetings? i think we have gone into the reasons for all this quite a lot i the reasons for all this quite a lot and i think nicola was at a cobra meeting that we had shortly thereafter. i remember conversation, a long discussion and several discussions involving her at meetings throughout the pandemic and genuinely, my relationship with her has always been friendly and professional. i think the reasons for the approach that we took, as i have been saying to others, i thought a grown—up way of doing this that would take the steam out of things, keep things focused on the needs of the uk, to manage it in a way that we did. truth? needs of the uk, to manage it in a way that we did.— needs of the uk, to manage it in a way that we did. why would, as you sa , way that we did. why would, as you say. taking — way that we did. why would, as you say. taking the _ way that we did. why would, as you say, taking the steam _ way that we did. why would, as you say, taking the steam out _ way that we did. why would, as you say, taking the steam out of- way that we did. why would, as you | say, taking the steam out of things, reguire _ say, taking the steam out of things, reguire mr— say, taking the steam out of things, require mr gove to be appointed to the role? _ require mr gove to be appointed to the role? l— require mr gove to be appointed to the role? ~ . , , the role? i think he was well-suited to the 'ob the role? i think he was well-suited to the job of — the role? i think he was well-suited to the job of bringing _ the role? i think he was well-suited to the job of bringing people - to the job of bringing people together, hearing people's opinions, conciliate in, without people who are not necessarily my number one political fans, feeling the need to chip paint of the government. i chip paint of the government. i don't need this up but you say in paragraph — don't need this up but you say in paragraph 191 of your statement that you have _ paragraph 191 of your statement that you have given to this inquiry that sometimes — you have given to this inquiry that sometimes when you had to make political— sometimes when you had to make political decisions about what was going _ political decisions about what was going to _ political decisions about what was going to happen with the country, sometimes decisions were urgent and needed _ sometimes decisions were urgent and needed to— sometimes decisions were urgent and needed to be made extremely quickly, which could _ needed to be made extremely quickly, which could present a challenge, either— which could present a challenge, either we — which could present a challenge, either we would need to convene a cobra. _ either we would need to convene a cobra, invite a cabinet meeting or a sub meeting in which their role was not always— sub meeting in which their role was not always completely clear. or we would _ not always completely clear. or we would need to take a decision ourselves— would need to take a decision ourselves and bring the da is on a board _ ourselves and bring the da is on a board. none of this was ideal. now, as we _ board. none of this was ideal. now, as we have — board. none of this was ideal. now, as we have seen from this inquiry as it has— as we have seen from this inquiry as it has taken— as we have seen from this inquiry as it has taken place, a lot of government in the modern day appears to be done _ government in the modern day appears to be done by way of very fast means of communication. text, e—mail, whatsapp. — of communication. text, e—mail, whatsapp, phone, video conferencing. why do— whatsapp, phone, video conferencing. why do you _ whatsapp, phone, video conferencing. why do you consider that consulting the da _ why do you consider that consulting the da is _ why do you consider that consulting the da is would have prevented urgent — the da is would have prevented urgent decision—making? in an the da is would have prevented urgent decision-making? in an ideal world, urgent decision-making? in an ideal world. perhaps _ urgent decision-making? in an ideal world, perhaps we _ urgent decision-making? in an ideal world, perhaps we could _ urgent decision-making? in an ideal world, perhaps we could have i urgent decision-making? in an ideal world, perhaps we could have found| urgent decision-making? in an ideal. world, perhaps we could have found a way of doing it. my concern was that they would understandably use their legitimate prerogatives to do things differently and from time to time, to come out of what were meant to be confidential meetings, and understandably want to talk to their own media within the da about what was going on and expend the position. i think the inquiry needs to reflect upon this and it is not for me to say but i have found that it was a
Related Keywords
Document , Lockdown , Screen , Record , First Minister , Principal Private Secretary , Cobra Meeting , Gove , E Mail , Administrations , Eighth , Ministers , Wales , Wales Secretary , Secretary , 8th Of May , 2020 , 8 , Passages , Announcement , Road , Discussion , 10th Of May , 10 , Question , Points , One , Thisjust , I Thisjust , Tooked , Disease , Page , Pub Cobra , Paces , Bullet Point , Practicalities , Jurisdictions , Progress , Sunday Afternoon , Message , Example , Nations , School Calendars , Course , Natiohs , De Cohftict , Change , Space , Devolution , Discussions , Recognition , Of Minister , Gove Wiii , Will Cobra Discussions , Isn T Message , Narrative , Devotved , Wiit , 2 , Scottish Government , Meeting , Commune Occasions Director , Director , The Cobra , Commune Occasions , Compited , 10th Of May , Observations , Messaging , Issue , Some , Scotland , Alert , Matter , Home , Concerns , Uk , Messages , Point , Director Of Communications , Top , Nothing , The Point , Three , Summary , Stay Alert , Say , Merits , People , Behaviours , Behaviour , Advertising , Monday Behaviour , Minister , Stay Alert Message , Assurances , Tv , Little , Ads , Tv Irr , Conflict , Do Whatsapp , Four , Stay At Home , Fact , Plan , Account , Fact Change , D Cohflict , Amount , Problems , Thank Ou Conflict , Ifi , Diversions , Advice , England , Lot , Level , Public , Effort , Sacrifice , Things , Difficulty , Approach , Parts , Everybody , It , Administration , Stay , Move , Agreement , Messaue , At Home , Cleai , Need , Clarity , Edo , Adjustment , It Plough , Government , Outcome , Order , Peach , Consensus , Degree , Pandemic , Caution , Snp In Scotland , Labour Government , General , Northern Ireland , Whole , Desire , Public Opinion , Grain , Lives , Us , Advantage , Freedom , Health , Questioning , Way , Answer , Fda , Didn T , Sensitivities , Policies , Divergent , Problem , Settlement , Right , Clear , Running , Everybody Else , Divergent That , Iam , Chain Inquiry , Evidence , E Mails , Lord Lister , Chain , Listerwas , Anwar Company On Behalf , Bereaved , Chain Of Inquiry , Nicola Sturgeon , Telephone Call , Scottish Covid , 19 , List , Diseases , The 5th Of March 2020 , 5 , 5th Of March 2020 , Reluctance , Transcript , You , 7th Of November 2023 , 7 , Place , Tension , Exchange , Wasn T , 105 , 2023 , Relationship , Kind , Otherthan , Characterisation , Ithink , Sturgeon , Will , Odd , Close , Person , Impression , I Working , Everything , Froing , Toing , Iwould , Friend , Opportunity , Leaders , Questions , Opportunity Questions , Particular , Usjust Focus , Bernard Friend , Guestions , Dust , Weill , Meetings , May , Play , Reasons , Ai Meetings , Meetinus , Conversation , Steam , Needs , Others , Role , Sl , Truth , Bob , Reguire Say , Reguire , You Sa , Job , Hearing People , Opinions , Chip Paint , Number One , Fans , Conciliate In , Paragraph , Statement , Paint , Don T , 191 , Challenge , Decisions , Cabinet Meeting , Country , Decision , None , Board , Phone , Communication , Video Conferencing , Text , Decision Making , Ideal World , Ideal , Concern , World , Urgent The Da , Prerogatives , Position , Media ,
vimarsana.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.