ground, let's note, hasn't stopped since the tragedy. reporters are on the groind trying to find out about the crash and in fact are hearing the sounds of fighting continuing to go on. >> let me respond, if i might to susan. first of all, i think we need an independent investigation, international investigation. i think it's also very important to remember that the united states needs russia to deal with many of the international issues from proliferation, to exiting afghanistan, a whole slew of issues. but what has been under reported, alex, is that for the last few months the president of ukraine has waged quote an anti-terrorist operation against his own people in southeastern ukraine, his own citizens. no question that you have pro-russian separatists. in some cases, it seems putin lost control. but there have been atrocities