europe whatever it costs so on to the point we ask u.s. immigration reform by council turnitin of the fortress europe. peter. thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point where my guests here in the studio are ana maria of virus a migration expert from costa rica and she says what joe biden can learn from europe is that inclusion needs to be a key element of the narrative also with us is helen posner from the german daily developed he thinks if you want to write when wing populists to rule europe all you have to do is open the book also has done a very warm welcome to joseph hutchinson u.s. lawyer and activist his opinion biden's ambitious plans are doomed to fail in the anti democratic u.s. . said you. know we got so much to talk about i mean let's begin with you as i said joe biden has made reform of america's immigration system one of the central plugs of his politics for the years to come now are you surprised i'm not surprised because a lot of oregon nice groups from the civil society aggressors are going to say show us made him go to power today and he showed it to them many of them were going to facial. organizing groups which are you know the basis of migrant relations as well so i'm not surprised he only us part of his narrative throughout the campaign i'm just basically surprised that he started his 1st day with some vicious platen which definitely right now who in the future is absolutely they were not prepared and they're not prepared and we have seen that in folding this in this case that they're not prepared to still plan and they're still working on that ok well they're not prepared in just a 2nd joseph joseph purchased an immigration is one of the most issues in the u.s. one of the most divisive issues in the wolves i think what makes it so polarizing i think unfortunate that we've let right wing populists control the narrative so you know people don't like our facts anymore when you look at the data immigration is a net positive for pretty much every society you look at wages increase people do better there is more diversification immigrants generally have either the social capital or just the gumption to come in start new businesses so immigration is a net positive but that's like a wonky detail that most people don't understand it's easier to you know resort to this fear and. i want to be very careful to say that i understand the fear right so people are afraid for their security they're afraid for their livelihoods but i think what we need to understand is that people coming to you know i say. europe and united states those are the same things they want they want to be free from that near and they want to have the same security when i stand here so what we're lacking is the empathy and really the understanding contextually why are these people leaving the bar as applied to ministration is going to do it so differently one senior official says quote they're going to restore compassion and order to our immigration system correct the divisive inhumane and immoral policies of the last 4 years school while donald trump broke the country so there's just a lot to fix. donald trump broke the country yeah i would i would agree though looking at the numbers of immigration i mean what we're talking about actually didn't go down as much as donald trump promised they would go down so i mean he the worst thing about trump was his rhetorics right and and in many ways he was just continuing what the obama administration started i mean fence building that wasn't his invention right obama started that so biden's change the rhetoric right. but how much to really change remains to be seen and what biden saying now is word for word what the european union has been saying all along and you know if you listen to fund a lion or anyone commission president they will you know they'll sign on the dotted line and what on what biden's just said so the question is really what actually happens and it remains for any government they have to control the borders and control who comes in who stays out. of what you refer to already has been news change the rhetoric but that is it easy to see and you could say a softer tone the thing that might be one way of. describing it but it has meant there has been towards the border. absolutely and i agree with you i mean sometimes i mean the changes needed to happen from a narrative perspective but there. so much to be done for example it's very important we understand that the 1st day when he entered to the white house he leverage these executive orders but there's one executive order regarding the migration protection protocol which was set by trump he said we're going to review it you have never said we're going to change it centrally watch i am very concerned because i actually today said in the press briefing we heard that they were going to. which is the new chief in come on who is going to take care of them for these issues exactly so it makes me feel like they're still not aligned with what they're going to say what is the plan what's going to be the what's going to be the plan what's going to be the the actions to be unfolded in the sort of the border and we still don't know that so yeah and critics say this is you know this is a pandemic own this is not the time to be revamping the system or tweaking the system would you say this is exactly the time because so i would disagree that there's now a surge because he's in office i think there's this natural pressure that pushes people to the united states especially in light of the pandemic what we've realized and you know i'm frankly shocked the united states with their vaccination campaign is doing so well or realizing as you need quick decisive action to impress that i'm impressed is. so interesting to. you you just mentioned roberta johnson and the jacobson who the woman who's responsible for the biden policies who owned the saloon border yeah she said what we're trying to do is walk the walk and chew gum at the same time that we're trying to be sort of kind of friendly but saying to people stay away from the border the workers. for probably not i mean. as you say people are coming. for reasons which are beyond the control of the u.s. government i mean terrible situation venezuela due to the mismanagement of the socialist government there the situation in central america due to again lots of corrupt governments there and gangsterism the situation even in mexico just the drug cartels i mean they killed like something like 10000 people in last year these are all things that biden khan can't control so i would do would agree that the people are going to come whatever he says and that's when i think and i say that they're not prepared because when when you have a narrative that is unifying and telling people that you're going to fix the immigration laws and you're going to not be an open borders because it has never been out if but you're going to fix what was done in the past you're essentially not can see there in that when people in central america were the ones waiting in mexico are listening to it with hope so these people it's not like us economic migrants saying like we cannot just wait to go to the embassy before we get to be set to come to europe because of pandemic issues these people are fleeing persecution they are they're not secured they're there outside with nothing to eat so you cannot tell these people to stay away and wait hold on until we fix something or we create a plan for you so then why the urgency why not think in the narrative from the beginning and promise in people with a lot of hope ok because you know my point in recent years tens of thousands of people from central america and mexico have tried to make their way into the u.s. many ending up stranded in refugee camps along with the trump of been destroyed in trying to close the border all together now and leadership is slowly beginning to change. they come from honduras venezuela and lots of fleeing violence some poverty in their homeland for years many have lived in camps like this in mexico on the border to the. dream destination the u.s. with biden hope and movement every turning to a stalled situation volunteers like sister norma accompany small groups across the border. now there is a possibility for a person who is politically past acute it and who fears for their life to have their case reconsidered. and that also means crossing onto american soil where there is sisted by aid organizations meanwhile more families are coming attracted by the prospect of fair treatment but the application process is long. while the us needs migrants as labor force whether these people will receive asylum or residency is far from certain will refugees soon have a chance to stay in the u.s. under biden. good question mona your postal response to seeing those petitions well i mean i'm from central america this is. feeling that creates. a loss how it is totally and the thing is yes it will exist and yes they will reform i trust and i believe that this is what is going to happen because i guess i have so much faith and so much respect towards the organization and grass are going to station that has pushed this further in the united states so it will eventually happen it just takes so much time and in the meantime for example the kids that are still waiting in the tension centers they call it in a spanish. which is resource you know and so i just want to insist on this in the meantime all of this is fixed is the life of humans and kids still in these attentional centers. this is an activist i just wonder i saw a sentence this research and thought was going to interesting because it seems to me to describe a balance in the situation that is a cruel balance but perhaps a realistic one the sentence goes like this to let some people in you need to keep many of those. if you see it as a there's only so much pie and if i have less pie then i'm losing so what we need we need to come to realize that we have the resources to take care of everyone and everyone in the whole way everyone in the whole wide world because we have nowhere else to go if we don't take care of everyone in this whole wide world what are we doing and why are we doing it so we're trapped in this mindset of you know these my little nation state guarding my little resource and i can't do it but we have the technology we understand technology now technology flows across borders we have the capacity to track people moving across borders we don't need we can have these open borders in europe because we have the ability to track people as a moving cross if we can send goods and services and capital cross borders why can't we afford the same to people are trying to vision. yet and i don't think the technology is a problem right we can of course we can track people where they go data protection laws in europe say you can't we even have problem with vaccine tracking device on our mobile phones of people which you know people don't have to have unlike in shall we say china with a full us too. and i for one i'm in favor of as much individual freedom as possible in europe is not a fortress by the way it is an island of freedom in a sea of unfreedom and i don't want to have to restrict that for instance with the technological devices you're talking about tracking everybody where they going i would prefer to be able to go across to france or to poland tomorrow and nobody knows i'm there. and nobody cares and i can do you know unless i start using my credit card or could go online and then facebook or whatever no no no you know knows who i am but you know the government isn't following what i'm doing and it's this freedom that i want to protect and i have to balance that against letting in a whole you know i mean how many people can you let in and still keep this freedom it sounds like i'm defending a privilege and i am i'm defending the privilege of freedom. and i'm very sorry but if the alternative is a little everyone in have them in a mosque and see where they're going then no thank you i'd rather not have that george orwellian state i'd rather have the situation we have now. i think if this is happening. and i would like to mentally what i like about what you said if that why are we using this technology in the wrong hands so let me rephrase that migration is a business and not for the right purposes. it's a business because technology. companies we've been industry even face recognition it's venal in the way of creation for what we know about frontex perhaps we'll talk about that later so my point is there's a lot of control logan exactly there's a billions invested there's billions of money being invested which basically essentially enables the right wing in a very conservative narrative to continue and controlling us so that will eventually happen and technology it's already been deployed but for duran direction when when we talk about migrants and i want to pick up something that you set the problem of fox not to be. taking into account anymore which is a big problem is that we have not seen the rest contribute way more than what for example europe is a spending in controlling them but since we don't care about data them that's when technology in this companies to spend much more money in making their business themselves. i'm so glad you pointed out the facial recognition technology so the world where you could travel to paris or rome and no one knew where you were that's gone the moment you're at a train station the moment you're at an airport these major hubs of transportation and we need that in the fight against terrorism so on the one hand we understand that we need this in the fight against terrorism but we don't understand that we could be using it to have much more humane borders ok can i just move away from the debates about technology migration is also about it's about politics it's about economics it's about culture to me a little bit about that so that's where i think you know in the united states we really see ourselves as a nation of immigrants it would be better if we also source as a nation of colonial conquest but i think we're kind of slowly getting there as the generation shifts in a nation very troubled by racism as world europeans can learn so much about you know constructive policy on racism from america. very. troubled by what we see and hear right so i think you know the issue with europe is europe still has this concept of itself you know these nation states in the cities i'm french i'm german we're white french were white german without understanding that the concept of europe historically was more around the mediterranean so you have people on the mediterranean now who are no longer considered european but historically and when it culture were so the issue is where do you start looking right and i think european culture right now has been stuck since the age of conquest and exploration. going. on into these weapons of fate let us. bring i just want to add more because i'm not your pm and i don't i would like to hear from from from one from europe what do you think about this because i from my rams perspective point of view when i came here to 15 and i see all these welcoming narrative and all their narrative that you know i think i have. but he now in the united states. diplomatic super correct when you refer to my friends and yet you see that not much has been. so. ok you are of the most people in the tacitly at least 2 or so of agree to look the other way while official agencies do the dirty work of keeping immigrants and outs of the continent down to the cruel. pushbacks. cries for help from refugees off the greek coast there inflatable boats constantly being attacked by massed assailants unfriended on. both the european border agency from texas as well as the greek government deny that such illegal action is taking place but there is video footage to prove it. in the southern mediterranean meanwhile e.u. funded libyan militias are threatening the work of sea rescuers like see i. am all refugees and now taking the dangerous route toward the canary islands for most this is the end of the line. the situation is even worse in the balkans in the account that the refugees one time. most want to move on quickly to the e.u. . because. again the. is the e.u. keeping out refugees at all costs. and our people i can see you citizens are prepared to look the other way was not occur. just nor are we willing to look away while the dirty work is done for us. your your your your film was very. biased the fact is these things happen and they shouldn't happen let's and yes they do to cope with among other things they don't get the the attention they deserve right that must happen the same time what your film didn't say is that hundreds of thousands make it to europe every year they are processed in a not in orderly fashion about 90 percent of them apply for asylum and they don't get it because you know and then they go to a court and 30 percent of the decisions against them but then reversed by the court this is means that things are working in in europe and also talking about frontex basically frontex has saved inception run about 26. hundreds of thousands of people fish them out of the war to save them from from people smugglers forth against pirates and that kind of thing and. i think it's a mixed bag right but if you hear the other side of the argument. before we get in the film didn't we i mean the fact is we are and i just want to say one thing if you had been this long and i mean when i came to germany in the sixty's as an as an english speaking migrant i was fitted like you know. you know and at that time no one could imagine that would we today we have something like the welcome culture i mean we've we aren't we haven't understood that we are a nation of immigrants the united states has since at least john f. kennedy so it's been you know. obviously it's going to take some time before that seeps down i mean you have to hand it to the germans with. something like 2015 would have been unimaginable only 10 years before for. its work to a certain extent and yes there is how much more welcoming culture than before i said 15 when i arrived here and i was impressed enough never seen anything like that from a human rights perspective if such a welcoming acted to to meet them what i'm tears mainly germans for europeans welcoming asylum seekers yet the problem is that it got stuck somewhere between 20162017 we know what happened politically speaking in places like germany . but this was the fear and panic that joe talked about this was you said you understand the fear that people feel and think that you're referring to the same things or yes exactly people saw too many people flooding into this country and afraid and it created an entire opposition which was there that active but now it's very active and it's very out there so the problem with with what's happening afterwards is like in turning 50 my so these hope when i saw these welcoming back to it but somehow it's been changing a lot over the last years and there is the spray should we still have how many people more than 30000 people are still stuck in greece with no hope so for what's going to happen with them many of them actually 4000 of them are young people in the school so whether they continue or they just let's send them home is just that we need to make a soon regarding from defense just cannot say anything good about these unfortunately i mean i work with organizations that are right now in the in the birch to be criminalized for 20 years in fenton service for saving lives and only it's just it's just very powerless how it feels to really express how people are feeling out there so it's not about me and what about you anymore i mean even they're going to say shows that i was running now i can get over to young