information given to you by people who believe in this bulk collection of records. so you're only getting one side. we don't get a two-sided evaluation of any of this. on the intelligence committees in recent history ron widen has been a champion for privacy and the bill of rights. there have been very few others that i think have a balanced or nuanced approach as far as protecting the individual's right to privacy. >> let me ask you the question from the flip side. that is do you know any innocent americans or know of any innocent americans caught up in the dragnet of phone record collection? >> i don't get any of the information. so if there were no one would tell us. >> do you fear that? is that what you fear -- >> let me finish the point. the point is is that the director of national intelligence came and said the program didn't even exist. so how could i ever trust them to actually reveal if they're abusing the system? now, there were some press reports that some people who worked at the nsa were spying on their girlfriend and boyfriend to see where they were. there have been some instances. but even if there were zero