profession is you have to meet a deadline, and you have to push in your work so that you get where you need to be at the time you've promised. >> the flip side, though s you do live in fear that something will pop up on a database at the last minute that will undermine what you recreated in a big way. and you can rub the same search -- run the same search and other stories will come up. i don't know about you, but up to the point that fred was out, i was still running the same searches to see if there was something that was going to inform or uninform something i'd written. >> well, that's true. and in my ace, you probably run into this too, there are cases where i know there is information that i know i need and that i've been looking for and that i simply have not been able to run down. and it's out there somewhere, but it can't be part of the book because i can't, we can't find it. >> i think we're down -- are we out of time? we have time for one more question? no, we are out of time. jim, you're going to come up and ask, okay? is we want to hear what you have to say. i want to thank these three writers. it's been exciting, and it's been interesting. give 'em a round of applause. [applause] >> tomiko brown-nagin is the author of "courage to dissent." what was the importance of atlanta in the civil rights movement? >> right. it's not been discussed very often in civil rights movement. although it was the home to several national civil rights organizations. the place i wanted to explore because i thought it would be a success story. is usually considered of interest only because it was the home of martin luther king jr., but i wanted to explore it because i knew it was a home to a sizable african-american middle class. many black colleges, and i thought that in part because the white city fathers always considered it a place of racial moderation that it would be a good place from which to explore dynamics in the civil rights movement. >> what did you find? was it a success story? >> in some ways it was a success story, including for many members of the black middle class who came of age after the landmark civil rights legislation in the 1960s, but the story that i tell in my book, "courage to dissent," is a little more complicated your it also shows that for many african-americans in atlanta, a city that one would think would be a perfect place to tell a story about civil rights success, it wasn't all successful for everyone. there was a lot of failure, including for a group of african-american women who were welfare rights activist. i tell their story in the third part of the book who challenged, not only wise but the black leadership, in the 1970s, saying they had been left out of the successes. >> when you use the word of dissent in the title of the book, who is dissenting? >> right. i talk about three ways of dissenters in my book at three different historical moment. the first wave of dissenters are pragmatists. they are people who are members of the african-american middle class who are interested in challenging jim crow but without giving up the social and economic capital that the black middle class had been able to achieve under jim crow. so this meant, for instance, that they were interested in economic, preserving the economic status. they were interested in educational equality, but they were not so interested in school desegregation because that would have meant that black teachers might lose their jobs. >> was there a fear by the black middle class in atlanta that they would lose what they had? >> absolutely. there was. and to some extent that fear was well-founded. the last third of my book was to explore these dissenters whom i talk about as welfare rights activist. they were poor themselves here i discuss how the black middle class pushed back against schools desegregation because of employment discrimination against black teachers and principals. >> what was the relationship between thurgood marshall and martin luther king jr.? >> well, it was complicated, and this is a story that i tell in the middle third of my book when we talk about dissenters who are street demonstrators and lawyers who represented them. it turned out that thurgood marshall was not enamored with student protesters. he told students at the beginning of the set ends in 1960 that they should not engage in street protest. he told them that they were going to get people killed, that they were invading the property of whites, and was very negative towards sit ins. and he believed that martin luther king jr. had inspired the students to go into the streets in protest. of course, for very good reasons because of martin luther king's leadership of the bus boycotts. >> were you surprised, i mean, the civil rights movement has often looked at as monolithic. and very in agreement. were you surprised at the levels of disagreement within the civil rights movement that you found? >> you know, i was. i think that's the most surprising thing that i found in my research. just how much we don't know about the movement, although many, many books have been written about the civil rights era. that there was so much conflict. and again, i talk about these three historical moments of the conflict. so much conflict over whether to desegregate schools, how much emphasis to put on voting rights, whether to desegregate housing, whether to engage in street protests or to negotiate with whites. these are points of contacts that historic have written about, in part because we want to tell stories that are simple, stories that are consistent with progress, american progress, and for so many years those stories have turned over brown v. board of education, the civil rights legislation of the 1960s, and what long civil rights movement asked us to go back and talk with the 1930s and 1940s and then to push forward to the 1970s. so not to stop at those conventional points in the sto story. >> professor, if you had to pick a date as a civil rights movement started, what would that day to be? >> well, you know, historians these days are really very skeptical of picking a starting point for the silver rights movement. i can tell you that my book begins in the 1940s, in the postwar era after the war, world war ii, provide a jumping right point for civil activism, including does or seems to be such a conflict between pursuing democracy abroad and the states in which african-americans found themselves, jim crow not consistent with democracy. so i talk about the 1940s as being a jumping off point. >> published by oxford. tell us about the cover of the book. >> right. i love these photographs on the book. the first photograph is of walden who is one of the south first african-american. he's a man who was little known today, but what i show him doing here is challenging the white primary, the convention that excluded african-americans from voting in the democratic primary in georgia, and throughout the south. so he's actually here going and trying to vote. >> what year was that? >> 1944. and as you can see in the photograph, he is wearing off against this gentleman who is the registrar, and there are a lot of people gathered around looking at this really dramatic movement of history in atlanta. the lower photograph pivots us to the 1970s where i show a woman by the name of apple me matthews who was the leader of the local group of the national welfare rights organization. she was a strong dissenter in the african-american committee. she is at a welfare rights protest there. and what she is saying there is that the civil rights movement has not worked equally well for all blacks. she is manning an adequate income. she's demanding integrated schools. affordable housing. so the cover is meant to depict the nuances of the book. >> professor, is she still a lot of? >> she is not. perspective you have a chance to talk to her relatives are and what? >> i did not.org relatives but i did have an extensive interview with her which was just great specs a given word on this book for cell years and other words of? >> absolutely. this book represents about a decade of work that i started on it as a dissertation, and worked on it for many years here and the result is the 500 page -- >> dissertation. >> right. >> so in talking with ethel mae matthews in doing your research, what was she like 30, 40 years later? >> well, she was a remarkably strong woman. she was very passionate. she was very clear in her sense that politicians of all ideological stripes, of all races, had not been attempted enough -- attended enough to the poor. and that's what she said to become in no uncertain terms. and that was quite surprising to me. she really opened up to me i think more than anyone else whom i interviewed, and i contacted about 30 interviews for this book. that the civil rights movement was much more complicated than even the stories that i have heard in grad school, and certainly in law school. >> if some is said to you, professor, that the civil rights movement was a middle-class movement, what would be your response be? well, i would say that it's an apt description anyways. in terms of its impact. i don't think that leaders of the civil rights movement like thurgood marshall, certainly not dr. king, and others, set out for it to be that way. they intended for civil rights legislation, for instance, for civil rights litigation to have a wider impact, but for a number of reasons the civil rights movement did end up most officials who most members of middle-class. those with the people who were in the best position to take advantage of the opening up of the workplace to african-americans, opening up of schools to african-americans. but for those like ethel mae matthews who was the child of alabama sharecroppers, who just was not very well educated and she was very smart, but not very well educated. it was a harder, harder thing to do to try to go in and interview for jobs and be successful, even after the employment discrimination legislation was enacted, for instance. so i talk about those things in the book, why it was so difficult to have a successful movement that brought in, brought benefits for greater number of people. >> we're talking with professor tomiko brown-nagin here in charlottesville at the virginia festival of the book, 17th annual in march 2011. what is your day job? >> well, i'm a law professor and a history professor at the university of virginia, a job that i enjoyed very much. >> what do you teach? >> i teach constitutional law, constitutional history. i also teach a course on education law. >> how long have you been doing that? >> at the university of virginia, for five years. before teaching at university of virginia, i taught at washington university in st. louis for two years. >> you were editor of yale already widely? >> that's right, yale law journal, i was an editor of the journal, so i attended -- attended year law school. i also got a ph.d in history from duke university, and prior to that i got an undergraduate degree in history spent would you go up and what did your parents do? >> right. i grew up in a small town in south carolina, greenwood it's called. my parents like ethel mae matthews, my father was once a sharecropper. e. later on worked in a factory, both of my parents attended segregated schools in south carolina. my mom, later asked when i was in law school and college and became a teacher, which is something she does now spirit we have been talking with tomiko brown-nagin, author of this book, "courage to dissent: atlanta and the long history of the civil rights movement." >> next, andrew liveris, author of "make it in america" argues that america needs to restore its manufacturing base in order to restore the country. >> it's a pleasure to be here. this is truly a labor of love to introduce our speaker today. i got to know andrew when dow brought in people and he contacted me and we worked out a different of things. of course, anytime a local company gets bought up by a national, or in this case and the national company, when you're the governor you are worried that the guts of the company will be taken elsewhere. and it's a contraction resident and expansion. first of all, and was very frank and honest and said to be some short-term contraction, but for pennsylvania this is a great opportunity for growth and he has lived up to his word in a very short period of time. he's not interested in losing jobs for america or for dow. is interested in gaining jobs and the right type of jobs which is why he is here today. he's been with dow for 34 years. i think most of you know dow is $54 billion company that sells special chemicals, plastics, enhanced materials. it's just an extraordinary company, most major countries of the world and sells to virtually every country in the world. he is still very active back home in a study with a university, but he cares very much about the united states of america and very much about americans. i had the chance to speak at the business council, which is an organization of 150 ceos of the 150 biggest and strongest companies in america just last week. andrew is the vice president of the council and asked me to come down. and one of the things i spoke about was the need for us to continue to invest in our own growth in things like infrastructure. infrastructure is important to the future of this country. infrastructure means manufacturing, and it's my strong belief that if it ever become a country that doesn't produce anything, we are cooked. we are simply cooked. we can't be a service economy. we can be a high-tech economy. we can't be -- we have to make things and would have to make creative things but we also have to continue to make things that are traditionally manufactured as well. andrew has spoken out on behalf of of that initiative with this great book, "make it in america." and i'd like to come before you say such an exciting book that i bought a copy, but andrew set me set me a copy so i didn't have to buy one. and i just want to introduce andrew i give you a quote in an interview, tv interview that he did, which i think is extraordinary. because it sums up what the united states government should be doing. by the way, i think president obama in his state of union address got it right. we have to continue to invest, and invest in our own growth. invest in education, invest in innovation. the r&d tax credit that andrew talked in his interview. i'm very proud and pennsylvania during my time as governor we quadrupled our are indeed credit. but i don't know if i'll do understand. we don't have a permanent federal r&d tax credit, and that's a big disincentive to business growth here in the united states. i had this interview, and andrew was asked the question about china. "glee" our biggest competitor, -- august the our biggest competitor. and he still attempt to manufacture comp what is china getting right that united states is not? that was the question. and andrew reply, the chinese do, not just the chinese but other countries i referenced in the book, which you all want to buy, such as germany, is a very holistic approach to manufacture. it's a strategy. basically they say manufacturing is a vital part of my economy. it employs people, pays great wages. so that the country strategy. they approach it as a country. those of us who are free marketeers would say that's a government interference. i don't see it as government interference. i see it as the public sector is establishing the rules of the road the private sector knows what those rules are, and, therefore, we can compete. in america, compete is a manufacturing country. i believe we can't and i believe we must. one of the greatest proponents of the idea in the country joining with union leaders and others is andrew liveris. >> thank you, ed. [applause] >> thank you, governor rendell. thank you steve, thanks for that warm introduction. in fact, i didn't realize that governor rendell would give my speech from and i essential will stop now because in every sense this is a governor who has given his speech before. he's given it over and over again. so it really warms my heart to have you here. you are a special changing of pennsylvania, a special champion for the country, and i welcome you as a champion of public-private partnerships, which something that struck me the minute -- something that struck me the minute i met the governor. you prefer to do. do you know in your time in office that he would not have said this about herself but once it's as if that matters that you reference in the book about germany is he doubled the exports of the state. he doubled the exports of the state. so it can be done. and you know it's a lot of work, a lot of work to engage people in a national conversation. it takes vision, it takes courage, it takes a belief. you have to of the belief system because a lot of people who did not want to engage in this conversation. so governor, it's great to have you here and it's an honor to share the avenue with so many future business leaders in front of me. i do want to engage in the conversation today why? because to state the obvious, you are building the future. your talents, knowledge, entrepreneurial work, interest to get yourself here. believe it or not, i'm sure you see sure you see a few ceos and your time here at this great school, and we'll all say it over and over but i will say from my vantage point, we need you more than ever. if you listen to what's coming out of washington, as the governor referred, the national conversation has begun. you know that business is now being engaged. and business is unique, ability to innovate, to create those jobs the governor referred to, to fuel prosperity and for all beneficiaries of yesterday's hard work that fueled our current prosperity. but the conversation is showing that it is once again this nation's business. the business of business is coming from washington, and other state capitals. of course, pittsburgh being key. now that's not just two of the united states. i put equally we at trying to as the governor referred to, we operate in many, many countries. i could take that book and say make it somewhere else. make it in america is not a unique thought. but really here in america it was a thought that was not being expressed. when the downturn began several years ago, the downturn that will be known as the great recession, there was a lot of focus on business, finance in particular, and really the focus was how things had gone wrong. well, what's really happening today is how to make things go right. and all of you have a role to play on how things go right. a lot of us, a lot of us who employ people like the company i work for, are counting on it. we need you intellectually curious, engaged, with practical thinking on how to make things go right. your impact on the countries you're from, including this great country, cannot be minimized. it's nothing short of a noble goals of economic growth, job creation, preservation of our fragile planet and the environment, the quality of life, quality of life itself. i can't think of more noble goals for today's leaders and today's business leaders like myself. we see it as an opportunity, a world that really has -- itself not only in boardrooms, but in living rooms and dining rooms, playgrounds, in villages, cities around the world. i went to over 30 countries last year. it's the same conversation everywhere. how do we get these noble goals? how to put them in reality? there's a lot of responsibility that goes with answering that question. as populations grow and resources to manage, it's more important than ever that companies, companies like dow, deliver, deliver and smart answers. to answer the question not from the sustained build or profitability, but sustainability and profitability. they do not distinguish themselves in s