>> i'm ready to talk about, i will come to that point, about bridging the state of religion. but if you separate or distinguish the state of religion, tell me what you put instead of religion. because what we are facing in the west now, we all know this has citizens, i live in europe, you live in the united states of america and we all know the problem we have with our democracies now is not the decision of religions, but some decisions of transnational cooperation and economic power that are deciding without us being able to do anything. in democracy we are still dealing with powers that are beyond the democracy procedure. banks, transnational corporations, and we're facing with people are deciding. in greece, in spain, in italy we have technocrats are coming to solve the problem. we never elected them. but money is choosing them. so we also have to deal with the simplistic answer when it comes to separate religion from state, what do you have? directing the state or imposing decision on the state which is also imposing decision on to us as citizens. so this idealization of the western democracy model i would say be cautious. we all have to do with problems and prices from within. so i wouldn't push the arab world to follow blindly the western model, but to be very critical and to try to take the best from the other models into drawing their own way. having said that, five main problems and i will stop here. the first one is really the discussion about the nature of the state. i was referring our began, referring to islamic state. if you listen now to what is coming from tunisia and what is coming from egypt, you don't speak about i don't talk the islamic state. they're talking about civil state with islamic reference. this is what they are saying. it means religion is not going to impose a structure. having said that, are we playing with words or are we now really talking about something which is the state is a bottom-up delegation of power and religion is something, coming from on high and it has no power on the decision of the state. what is coming from the new islamist and even some sociologists are saying this is no longer islamist. this is post-islamist. i don't even know what started and when it's ending, but we have some problems here with terminology. the point is that they're referring to islam and the our critical question that we have to ask it when it comes to the prerogative of the state in which we are dealing with the principle. my point here is to say the muslim military cut should be quite clear on 69 principles, but for me are not negotiable. the first one is rule of law. the second is equal citizenship for all, all the citizens, muslims and other faiths or no faith at all. the third one is universal suffrage. it's a majority. the fourth one is accountability. when you're elected you are elected, you have to come back to the citizens to be checked, not to be democracy elected for life as we had with us on and the family. so this is what we had with the world before. the fifth what is judiciary of authority. and differentiating the state from religion when it comes to power. meaning by this it's not because -- you are divorcing th two. in the united states of america you know the separation is exactly the same as european secretaries. for example, when you talk about this in france, we are the only secular society. the united states of america is not a secular society because you have, you can't in france say god bless france. you can't say that. that's mixing, confusing everything. so even though you can think about it but you can't say it. but point is the relationship is important to is islamist majority countries, it can be separating without divorcing. to have a reference, and i'm very serious about this by saying religious people, christians or back or buddhist, i would like for our philosopher -- philosophical -- so it's not importing religion but it's having a reference in ethics, ethics. the separate religion from our, that doesn't mean you don't have ethics and politics. so which kind of ethics in which -- what could be a reference is a very deep discussion and especially what comes to muslim countries. we have limits when it comes to freedom of expression and all the discussion that we have now in tunisia. so this is one -- so this is about the state, a very important discussion that we need to have. and we have now the islamist groups but also the secularist. they are not clear on this. because i was saying something and they were always justified the decision but being against islamist. it's not because you're religiously liberal that your public we democrats. some of the secularists were quoting decades for years, some of them. so they're saying to the west we are progressive, we are against religious imposition. there was to porting some of them, not all of them. some of them were resisting. we have to be very cautious. it's not because we're religiously liberal that it into going to support the support i was mentioned now. i think on this we have to get answers from all the political actors in muslim majority country. the second is a very important one about the economy vision for the future. if you look at the islamist today there's something which is quite clear. they are all accepting the free market and the new liberal system. the first one is -- he is now making their what the e.u. didn't want him and didn't want turkey, okay, you will see. might be now that e.u. is much more in need of turkey and turkey as you see. and it's a very important point. why? because he's doing very well in the economic side. is this the answer, do we want the markets to be opened and this is why we mean by democratization? or do we want economic stability? my point is the first to go to the imf, to the world bank and into within the system because we are proud of the future. we know that islamists are not a problem with the west as long as there are new liberal us and capless. we know this. you have an example. i keep on repeating this. it was said that i was banned from the states and then was removed. but i've still been from saudi arabia for the criticism i'm making to the country which is a lie of the united states of america. it's not a democracy. no one cares about the status of women in saudi arabia, saudi arabia now coming off qatar all the petro monarchies because there protecting our economic interest. so you get the conservative there, you can ban women from driving cars as long as you're protecting our oil an hour economic interest. so at the end of the day, they are saying there is a democracy and islam, but they have the right to take the economy. we have to be serious about this. at the end of the day what is coming from him so must now is there not resisting the economic power, they are ready for it. it might be that this is the point here that because they are ready. if there is another thing which is important and economic side and this is why i'm saying about the arab awakening, it would keep on talking about the political structure another buffy economic challenges, we are misled in the whole discussion. my take on this is what is happening in the middle east is not for political reasons. i don't think -- khanfar. the obama administration or the european administration are more happy with democracy than they were with dictators. you know, i think it's a question of interest. but what are the interests now? over the past 10 years, the chinese economic presence in the middle east was multiplied by seven. it's a very powerful presence. the three countries, brazil, india -- the bric countries, brazil, south africa, russia, are playing a very important role in the region. we don't talk about this but it's going, it is a shift year. for many reasons it's going to have an impact. on the countries, on the relationship between israel and arab other countries, because remember china has not the same relationship to israel than the united states of america. but this is a very big concern. what's going to happen in the region. we have to take this seriously. it's not only political or economic. this is the second point, the economic vision coming from the arab world. when i was talking, to the current president in tunisia i was with him recently, i don't have a problem as long as they deal with rule of law and democratic transparency for all this is is fun. my main problem with them is not the fact that the refer to islam. i'm -- my main problem is take on economic liberal economy. so this is my problem. he's a secular he has a problem with islamists because they're very, very conservative on religious terms and very liberal on economic terms. it's the same with muslim brotherhood as you know, recently dealing with world bank and imf. second thing. third thing is about education. very quickly, this is where we need to have a very deep discussion. there will be no democracy, no change over to work on education. i mean by education, education for all, education insulted to strike against poverty. it's jihad for education what you get something essential. this is what i'm saying about women. i was talking about the headscarf industry. i'm sorry, the only way you're going to evaluate and to assess empowerment of women, is on two things. has nothing to do with the way they dress. it has to do with access to education. and the second, access to the job market. this is where we want people to be. and the secular are not coming with answers and the islamists are not coming with answers that are credible and efficient on these things. this is a big question, what is your education policy. in of religion. and on this is going to be a big problem. we have big challenges. the divisions from within the literalists and the reformists and the rationalists, the division from within and the big divide between shiites and shira would be a big example. arabs and muslims are not taking this seriously. we are facing a world culture that is very much -- if you look at the arab world we have a problem. the arabic language, arabic literature, the books, creativity, where are the clinics when it comes to movies, what comes to art, when it comes to entertain? what comes to the democracies? it's about being created. it's about producing something which is us, our perception of the world. where is that? who's promoting this? it's a challenge. a very big challenge. we have to talk about us. we have to talk about beauty. it's part of the freedom. it has to do with a sense of belonging within the society and i think that is neglected in our discussion. and the last one which is a field that is coming out of all this process is something that is covering the whole thing, is the way we deal with corruption. it's the starting point and the end of the whole process. corruption is one of the main challenges in the arab world, at all the levels by the way. they say look at these people, they are so corrupt, but the daily corruption we experience in the arab world is something that we all know so we have to do with this. this is ethics, ethics of citizenship, ethics of civil society. ethics everywhere. this is the way i would take islam applicable of being a reference not by closing and being a framework where we can't a just, but being a reference where these principles and objectives and has people do something which is the future. having said that, my last point is let us altogether celebrate the six principles i mentioned. celebrate the shift, this mindset, this intellectual revolution by saying one thing which is important. at the end of the day, we are promoting shared universal principles, but it's not about us. society for the people, which kind of democratic model they will have any future. this is their business. for the egyptian to find their political model which is referring to their history, their collective psychology, their culture. they need to find a model. it's not for us to go to iraq and say to people, this is the only right kind of democracy model unique because we know how it should be. it's not. this is in frail -- this is still colonization. this is intellectual position. let the people find the model. let us be part of the discussion. this is why i'm in europe as well and i'm sharing this with you because i think all of us year as citizens we have a role to play. by being critical about her own experience as democrats and their citizens, by seeing in our society the failures, the undermine process of asking citizens and sing people deciding for us, by saying have to be critical and at the same time to be very clear on anyone who is not advocating violence but advocating freedom, dignity and equal rights has the right to be part of the political discussion in the arab world. it's not for us to say you are the good democrat or your the good muslim or the bad muslims. this is once again not going to help anyone in the future. thank you. [applause] >> i enjoyed your talk very much. what i would like you to do is to talk more about bringing women into the running of things. because it seems to me that most of your religions, for instance, have nails in the lead role. -- males. it wasn't until 1920 that women got to vote in this country. so if you don't let them in, they just don't seem to have much influence. but if you do nothing and you get a different vision, from the mail. the males got a load of testosterone and and it's behind all the wars we've had. it's behind a lot of the troubles with that. it's a crime and stuf so if you put the women in come your going to get a different viewpoint. at like you to comment on it. >> i completely, i completely agree with your conclusion. i would be more cautious about the biological explanation. [laughter] but the serious point here is, is really about women being much more involved. and i completely agree with it. you know, we have to be series about this. we have to rely on facts and figures when it comes to, when he society is doing well. if you look at all the facts and figures when it comes to education, for example, when it comes to agriculture, when it comes to every dimension of making decisions. when you allow the women to be involved, they are doing better than them. the facts are you. it's an agriculture. it's an education. not only in muslim countries, not only in the global south. look at what is happening in the west. we have now women and muslim women being involved in education at the same level as men. those figures are clear. they are doing better than in an this is creating even problems within the muslim communities in the west because now they are more educated. so i would say that, and starting with this as a principle, it's very important to try to find a way to promote women. and i would say don't be misled by the supervision of what is happening in the muslim or turkey country. the uprising, women are very much instrumental in tahrir square, in tunisia. they were there. even in saudi arabia. even in petrol mortgage of women very much educated and being more and more visible. the point is to promote this through education and job opportunities, and to get them not as simple. be careful with simple set up betraying the radicals on the ground. i think this is where we have to come together. but what i would like from us in the west is not to say the only liberated woman are the women who are like us. the liberated women are liberated women when they think, when they are empowered and they can be practicing muslims and liberated women. we have to reassess our perception of who is free, and how they are free. having started by this and this, we tried to have a critical discussion and to promote the rights of women, but i completely agree this should be done. and it also should be done in the way we deal with the religious scripture sources. i allocated one chapter on women and sing with two problems, reduction of the text little understanding of projection of cultural on the text so the cultural understanding and went to do with this. it's a critical challenge that we have here. >> i spend about 90 minutes before you got here checking out various things in the book. page 81, 131, you seem to say that there's no way democracy can take root in the middle east. this is the palestinian problem is solved. my question is does that mean it will be israel's fault if democracy fails in affairs countries? >> i always agree with the first part and not with the conclusion. i said this, and let me put it clearly, very often to ask, in the middle east they are explaining all the problems that they have the middle east by saying israel is the reason. so the complex, all of our proms are coming from israel. and i'm saying the opposite. i think israel and the problem we have with our lack of support with the palestinians is a conflict one, many other problems. so it's constant. if you are serious about democracy process, we all want what i just mentioned them all the challenges are there, that i'm not naïve. by saying, remember what israel said when the people were the most -- went to support mubarak and because there is a problem that everything which has to do with transparent democracy in the arab world will mean at the end a great majority of the people are not going to be happy with israel policy. and the israeli government. we know that. so if you want to do with democracy in the middle east, you better reassess israel policy. and this has to be solved. because i'm not saying it's because. i'm saying it's the critical discussion that we had in the middle east here in what is happening in syria, what is happening in many countries around has to do with the palestinian issues. so at the end of the day my point here is to say that israel, and i said many times, and it is one of the facts i was banned by this country by saying the training of america should stop to support unilaterally israel. israel is not doing a good service to freedom, dignity and that the people in the region. this is my point. i stick to this. i'm not trying to say that israel is to be blamed for this, but if you want to go to achieve something which has to do with transparency democracy -- transparent democracy in the middle east, we have to solve the conflict in the way they are respecting the rights of the palestinians. >> sounds like a doubletalk. >> do you know what i -- no, no, no. i'm very sorry you in the like this. you know my answer to all the people are saying that i have doubletalk works i'm just responding. you might have doubled hearing. [applause] >> good evening, professor ramadan. thank you for your talk. i'm a research associate with the public law and professional policy grew. my question pertains to syria. how do you characterize the ongoing conflict there? recent news reports have characterized it as an emerging sectarian conflict. do you think it is a conflict defined primarily in opposition to the government of president aside or do you think it's a more emerging securing conflict in the region? >> look, when i was writing on my website, i was trying to write every week an article about what's happening. for eight months the administration and the west were not really supporting a change in syria. you remember, that for eight months they're asking bashir to reform his regime from within. this is come from european countries and from the states. at one point it was part clear that the massive demonstrations were not to be controlled. so something has to be done because people are not happy with them. and then it changed because they had to deal with who can we trust in the opposition? because in the opposition with islamist and we have some are very much against the american administration. so they took eight months to start dealing with opposition and try to find people they can trust. so, and the ration -- russian government and th