good evening i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, republican death panels. good name for them. college students describe the republican caucus in the senate. all they do is kill things. and democratic presidencies, he hopes. their mission to destroy whatever gets in their way. they voted against the stimulus bill. against the health care bill. against financial regulation. their leader, dr. death himself, mitch mcconnell, chortled with chilling delight about what he spended to do next year. here he is talking with politico -- and yet the public is encouraged by president obama's willingness to compromise. but how do you compromise with a republican leader whose goal is to see you defeated? yet, despite his best efforts to oppose something because president obama supports it, the new s.t.a.r.t. treaty that has voted to pass. chalk up one more big win for the president in this lame duck session. plus, once again, the kenzie rule, that people get in the most trouble when they say what they believe. somewhere in mind, governor barbour remembers some good thipgs. today, he called the groups indefensible. the census numbers are out. republicans red states gain and democratic blue states lost. we'll talk to the "hardball" strategists about how these changes changes the calculus for 2012. hispanic power in the southwest. it also certainly helps the state of florida, which has become a very, very important big and growing state. let' finish tonight with why people on the right are talking state's rights again. what's this talk about that in texas? even in virginia? what's the foot in these confederate states and what's this talk about? what's this battle they're cook up? i want to know. we start with mitch mcconnell's latest threat against the democrats. david corn is washington bureau chief for mother jones and jonathan allen is with politico. i have never seen a character like this. he seems like a character that only charles dickens would have created. >> it's christmas season. he's showing lots of chutzpah. he's saying you know what? we're going to come back and do it all over again. you just noted that the president on s.t.a.r.t. and also on don't ask don't tell just figured out how to peel off some of mitch mcconnell's republican allies to pass legislation and yet he's saying, we're going to say no, no, no all the way home. >> let me ask jonathan, your thoughts. here's what i think is virs. if you draw the line and say your party's going to vote in lock step against everything the other side offers, you force the president's party, the democrats, to do everything party line themselves. they've got to go to left. if they're lucky, they can put a short of center left together, but mainly the left. then they can attack it. kill it. cut it off and then kill it. that strategy, unfortunately, works with voters. i'm not sure it works with good american history. your thoughts. >> in the 111th congress, that's what we saw happen with republicans. they said no. mitch mcconnell is the single most powerful member of congress. the biggest stick up here on capitol hill. that will continue into the next congress. when the president wanted to cut a deal on taxes, he put together a six-party talking group, went around them, cut a deal with mitch mcconnell. the number of votes he has now and his own political ablties which should not be underestimated. this treaty notwithstanding, mitch mcconnell was able to strike a deal with the president that would have made george bush blush. >> here's more of mcconnell in action, quote -- that reminded me of a scene from this movie in a conversation between billy bob thornton -- >> there is one final thing we should look at. just give me a second. >> i'll give you anything you ask for. as long as it's not something i don't want to give. >> well, that comment from him is what the republican strategy is. i will give you nothing unless it's what i want to give you. >> can we remind mcconnell that he's still in the minority? i think this is going to force barack obama. i think barack obama probably figures that come the next year or two, the act of ledgislating in washington may be over. that we may see the last hur ra with the tax cut deal and it's going to be a titanic battle between two political views. if mitch mcconnell keeps telling the american public we're not going to engage request this president and the president says, listen, these guys are blocking progress when we're facing hard times, that's the fight we're going to carry to the 2012 election. >> i've been following politics sibs i was a kid. i'm fanatical about history of this world. american politics especially and i have to tell you, i have never heard a political leader say my purpose in life, i'm talking about the head of a senate body, is to destroy the presidency of the other party. he has said from day one, my goal in life is to destroy the obama presidency. get him out of there. that is my goal. not something else, but to get him out of there. that's what he wants to do. i guess all these political parties would like to win the next election. they have a convention. they name a nominee for president. i've never heard them put it this starkly. >> usually, we project such cynicism on politicians. it's not that bad of a thing if it's not his first priority. if his first is constituents and his country, it's all right to want to beat the other guy. if he's going to sacrifice in an effort, that's a bad thing. >> i think he's trying to replace dick cheney as the troll under the bridge. waiting for the the kid to cross the bridge and bites him on the angle. here's mcconnell on floor. >> our top concern should be the safety and security of our nation, not some politician's desire to declare a political victory and host a press conference before the first of the year. >> the facts are that this treaty is not being rushed. this treaty was delayed at the request of republicans. >> you know, the term death panel was cooked up by the former governor of alaska, but i think it fits the republican caucus better than anybody. here's a guy who wants to kill a nuclear arms treaty worked out with the support of every republican state going back to doomsday. all the support, a lot of republicans serve on arms services know it's a good treaty. it's safe, good for us and reduces nuclear warheads. here's a guy in totally partisan terms, here's a way the screw the president. >> these guys are substituting good cheer for crankyness. they say we don't care of the substance of matter. jonathan's right. this is what got them the majority in the house and improves mcconnell's number. barack obama is going to have to find a way to make that the story. not the fact that they're attacking him. but to show they're not acting in the public good. >> i think they're going to replace the republican eicon wih a todad. is that what it's going to be? >> i don't think the logo committee is going to change the elephant for a toad. i think that's what got them the majority. the no, the killing of bills, standing in the way, but i think they have a need to govern. we're seeing that in this part of the productivity. >> give me the ideas, they want to kill health care. they want to kill, they want to make sure taxes stay down. basically cash out of government. they want to reduce, reduce, reduce. what they want to do? why are they in washington? why did they run for office? >> i think they're in washington to reduce for sure. i think the american public wants to see cuts in spending. the question is, will the public go along with the revenue increases that are also needed to try to bring the budget into balance and get rid of deficits on an annual bases and i think that answer is still unclear. people want the government to spend more than it has and tax them less than it needs to keep afloat. that's the pure politics of it. even this tax deal did just that. >> except in a period like this, i think they're killing the republican party. >> we're still in an economic crisis. there's nothing they're saying that really responds to that. that may be what they're happy doing the next two years. >> thank you, david corn, thank you, jonathan allen. happy holidays. coming up, there's all this talk about state's rights, why do we keep hearing about succession from the governor of texas? about nullification? why did haley barbour go off about how great the white citizen's councils were? is there some sort of second childhood of the confederacy coming on here? what's going on here? this is bigger than politics. ah, it's stinging a little bit more than usual! yeah, you'll get used to it. the longer you keep your high mileage car, the more it pays you back. get castrol gtx high mileage. it helps engines last longer by fighting the main causes of engine failure. i think a dime went up my nose. yeah, it happens. don't change your car. change your oil to castrol gtx high mileage. its more than just oil. it's liquid engineering. new polling from p prg ppp finds the one question where sarah palin does well with democrats. which republican do you want to win the republican nomination in 2012? they want somebody they can beat. democrats from iowa to wisconsin prefer palin. 22% of ohio democrats chose palin. huckabee in second. while 21% of wii. national polling suggest palin matches up weakest against president obama. "hardball," i think these voters, these democrats want to see her up there so they can beat her. be right back. to stay fit, you might also want to try lifting one of these. a unique sea salt added to over 40 campbell's condensed soups. helps us reduce sodium, but not flavor. so do a few lifts. campbell's.® it's amazing what soup can do.™ in a magazine sper interview, governor barbour of mississippi remembered some good the white citizen's council did. he said they were totally indefensible. while benny thompson of mississippi and melissa harris per perry, congressman, i want to give you full opportunity to talk about the governor right now, but first, a big quote from him before. this is what he said in that weekly senate interview -- why school integration happened without violence. he said -- well there he is saying they were better of two organizations. he paints them in a positive light. today, he says they're indefensible. what's your role of the -- >> i think it's clear the white citizen council no better than clans men in a business suit. they intimidated anybody who promoted segregation. any kind of effort was met with absolute hostility, so the governor's initial response was unfortunate. his opinion of the group does not bear out the facts. if you look at them. and i think his stepping back, saying i was wrong, is clearly because he was caught. >> you think that's what he thinks? >> it's his opinion, but the record does not reflect it. yazoo city, mississippi, was just like every other small mississippi town. they were in the effort, the federal government had to sue every school district in the state of mississippi to des desegrega desegregate. it wasn't because of of local leaders. it was because federal government came to states like mississippi and said you can't have separate and unequal schools. my governor's description of yazoo city, mississippi during the '60s is inaccurate. >> let me go to the professor. i see something here more than maybe one person having badly placed nostalgia. getting back to the general thing, i've notice d a pattern n the right and we all grew up listening to it, i wasn't involved in the civil rights movement was successful. we americans honor people's rights and we find a way to honor them. we don't sit around and talk about state's rights. then we go to history books. we're hearing these words again. why are the republicans on the right talking like antebellum southerners? >> barbour's sort of reflection on the ideas that the citizens councils were better than the clan. he's trying to draw distinction between the horror of physical violence and lynching, and this other thing which he thinks is more benign. it's not more benign. that economic terrorism, political terrorism, that the white citizen's council engaged in was just as profound as lynching. they took people's homes from them. they made sure people couldn't duoto school if their parents were involved in organizing. these were real issues, but part of what moment is that we look back and imagine people had different opinions. it was a violation of human rights. it then allows i think in this kind of contemporary context, the idea that we disagree with the current pattern of the federal government and therefore, we have a right to stand in massive resistance of that government. that only happens because we have such historical forgetfulness about the nature of what these good businessmen councils were all about. >> you're doing a good teaching moment here. we have this video. here's a white citizen's council member in birmingham in 1957 who's fighting integration. >> we're going to have city commissioners and especially police commissioners who will say this to the federal government. you're injunction is of no effect. your federal law has no affect. we will segregate the buses and if necessary, i shall arrest every about who attempts to conspire -- >> wow. you remember that kind of voice i guess. >> absolutely. as you know, i live in mississippi. be there all my life. those kind of voices i remember as a child. clearly, it was the federal government who stepped in and stopped state governments from discriminating against african-americans. >> so is this talk about states rights we're hearing now, nullification, all this babble, is it just another code for dwoent like civil rights? >> well, you know, again, somehow, people are trying to rewrite history to say that this era in our past was not nearly as bad as people think it is. but clearly, you have to talk to people like myself who had to endure separate, unequal. >> why are they doing it? >> well, i think it's part of this revision, this theory in history, that somehow, southerners didn't do as bad toward african-americans as you think and i just think that the governor, by stepping back now, saying well, i misspoke. this organization was a bad organization, is because now, msnbc and other stations have taken the cover off him and he can't say these things and be in the public venue. >> professor, is this really in reaction to barack obama being president? would this be happening if mccain were president? >> i don't think it would be, but it might be going on if say hillary clinton or even john edwards were president. it could be about having a democrat. but let me say one thing so we're really clear. there are some people l with this kind of ante federal government perspective who are doing nothing more than a kind of confederacy rising again narrative and it is about racism and white supremacy, but they're in a coalition with a bunch of good hearted americans who are talking about antifederal government issues who don't think that. i want to speak to that part of the coalition and say the history of america tells you that when you start hearing people talk about this kind of separation, succession, null dpags, state's rights, you are aiding and abedding the history of -- even if what you mean is i want lower taxes. i just want us to be careful about the coalitions in which we find ourselves because this is what the history of those kinds of narratives are all about. >> i remember back in the '60s growing up, a lot of people thought gold water was cool. you saw the rebel flags behind him. i looked at that poll we had last week and i'm proud of our polls because it teaches you stuff. there's a portion of the american people who hate michelle obama. now, i can't think of a reason in the world why you would hate this well turned out woman who's bringing up her kids well who's done nothing more really than fighting childhood obesity. if a person hates her, i think it's race. >> no question about it. race is still a problem. just like some people say the white citizens council was a neighborhood watch organization rather than a terrorist organization. we have a will the of things like this. >> you're a funny guy on a serious matter. thank you so much. that was a wis crack, but i love it. just a neighborhood watch. thank you for joining us, congressman. you both have a merry christmas. up next, arlen specter has some tough talk to his party. he said the republican party have become rigid, moved to the right and have no room for moderates like him. let's look at that in the "sideshow." it's coming up next. princess of the powerpoint. your core competency... is competency. and you rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i'm getting an upgrade. 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