very winning and that has been a feature of his political life for -- for decades. the other is his stubbornness. joe biden believes that he has been right all along. that the afghanistan war has long since ceased being worth fighting. that nation building doesn't work. and that americans need to get out of there. those two parts of his political makeup are, to some degree, in conflict over this issue. because it is impossible to say, at the same time, that we are ending this war cleanly and neatly. and to understand, at the same time, that there are many, many thousands of afghans who helped the united states and are vulnerable as a result who will not be able to leave. the evacuations are -- are focused primarily on american citizens. secondarily, on those who helped the americans. time is running out. they're working against august-31st deadline that biden has not said he would extend. and so, there really is a limited amount of -- of time and there will be a limited number of people who can get out. >> and very briefly, what's your sense of how the president perhaps messages on this? nbc's gary grumbach asked quite a few people said they weren't