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Chris Jansing Reports

they were secretly working according to the indictment, with trump and his allies as part of this conspiracy. i think this part is one of the parts of the indictment that as you mentioned, might resonate with jurors or just people as they're watching the case unfold. because as we talk about racketeering and we're used to it being in this mob or criminal or gang setting and that way you're used to hearing about allegations that these organizations tried to intimidate witnesses. tamper with people. and so this is an example of that applied to the trump indictment. >> charles, what about the civil case and giuliani? he confessed to what he said not being true. could that play a role? >> i expect at some point that's going to be used. it's so early to tell because you have 19 co defendants on

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Chris Jansing Reports

but again, the fear and the personal aspect of this is how do you want to play it. >> and people have very different risk tolerances. some people are gamblers. some are not. >> our thanks to you guys and the fulton county indictment offering some closure for the every day people at the core of this case. georgia election workers. multiple people charged in the indictment are accused of pressuring freeman and moss, a mother and daughter, after former president trump and his allies accused them of pulling ballots. it deeply affected them and their lives as we heard firsthand during the house january 6th investigation. >> i don't go to the grocery store at all. haven't been anywhere at all. >> i get nervous when i have to give my name for food orders. i'm always concerned of who's around me. i've lost my name.

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indictment and used his key allies, his chief of staff, mark meadows. john eastman. so try to basically interfere in a serious of state elections notably georgia's, and throw the results into such chaos joe biden would not be able to be seated. >> devlin, what about the timeline? how does this indictment change the playing field for jack smith? you've got pretrial motions. arraignments for not only donald trump, but these other defendants. they're going to be running out of courthouses and he's got a campaign and you've got, you know, an election calendar as well.

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Chris Jansing Reports

and i've lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. >> and with us now is msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, barbara. atlanta journal constitution washington correspondent, tia mitchell. and charles, former prosecutor and also an msnbc legal analyst. barb, this indictment specifically calls out individuals who harassed these women and one knocked on ruby freeman's door prompting her to call 911 three times. so what's the strategy behind the d.a. including these specific workers by name in this charge? >> i think this charge really reflects the nature of the kinds of cases the federal government charges versus the kinds of cases the state government charges. oftentimes in federal cases, the victims are faceless. it is society in general.

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Chris Jansing Reports

wasn't successful. essentially no harm no foul. that's not true in and of itself but when you consider the cases of ruby freeman and shaye moss, it becomes even further more a falsehood because these people had their lives ruined. these people cannot live as normal human beings anymore primarily because someone was furthering this conspiracy, which is why it is such a big deal. then when you look at the indictment, when you go into the details as to what they were asked to do, these people were asked to lie about the fact they did not do something proper with regard to the election. this is mind blowing given the fact that you had the most powerful people in the country preying among the most vulnerable. so i commend fani willis for this count. it's not gotten a ton of attention given the very explosive nature of the overall indictment, but it's going to separate what she's doing in fulton county from what's

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easier. and second, oversimplifying a bit, in order to have a reliance on counsel defense, you have to act in good faith. we talked about this quite a bit when the second jack smith indictment was unsealed. there's a lot of bad faith in that indictment. there's a lot of people who told mr. trump, and he is the lone defendant, of course, in that federal case, that his fake electors scheme was unlawful, that he had no good faith basis to do what it was he wanted to do. without a good faith basis, an advice of counsel defense is doomed to fail. can they try it? sure, they can try it. but i think it's going to be a very bumpy path for a number of the people who might otherwise wish to rely on that at trial. >> let me go from the legal to the logistical, because it is very clear that over the course of the last ten days, at some

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chuck rosenberg, power panel, and i will start with you if i can. when i read this social media post by donald trump, he promised a large complex and detailed report by monday, to refute this indictment. is it bound with footnotes and where you could go, i wonder, is his team now scrambling to come up with the report? what do we know about it? >> very little. i mean look, tolkien wrote large complex and detailed volumes too and they were fiction and i can't imagine anything in this report would be anything other than that and the facts that donald trump wants here just don't exist, there were dead people in florida, or georgia, or florida for that matter, voting in the numbers that he would need to make this work, there were young people that weren't out of state people, and there weren't ballots stuffed in machines, i mean if you go back and listen to the hour-long

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Chris Jansing Reports

h, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. hitting the top of the hour. thank you for staying with our special coverage of the fourth indictment against donald trump. i'm chris jansen with andrea mitchell and katy tur, and digging into what fani will is called the criminal enterprise represented by the former president and 18 codefendants across georgia and across the country and arizona and michigan and nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and washington, d.c. >> this hour, we will break down the sprawling 98-page indictment and the activity by donald trump and associates beginning the day after the 2020 election, all the way through to september, 2022. and how this case differs from

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furtherance of a conspiracy. she'll admit she tried to overturn the election or brought in fraudulent votes but won't say it's me because i'm a white man. talk about that part of the indictment. >> yeah. or probably a bit more cynical or damning reading of that is they felt by finding someone black who perhaps could relate to miss freeman in a different way would allow her to be more easily manipulated into lying or confessing things that could you know, make her be plausible or responsible for some of the wrong doing they're alleging while furthering their attempts to overturn the election. and so that's what we saw play out in the indictment as it was mentioned that you know, they did try to cozy up to miss freeman, provide her support, provide her cover, but really

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this indictment including giuliani. so we don't know what's going to happen with any one of them. i suspect we'll likely see some things come out before any trial takes place. but if it were to be the case that this was to go to trial and rudy giuliani is still a defendant, i absolutely would expect that to become a piece of evidence with respect to establishing the counts necessary in order to convict him around the harassment of freeman and moss. >> briefly, charles. there's a national effort eric holder, to try to protect election workers coming up in '24. and in other elections. do you think that's happened here in this indictment could lay out a game plan to try to protect these election workers? >> well i would hope so, andrea. when chris and i were talking about the notion of democracy versus real people, one thing that can't be lost in this con

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