one year ago tonight, the trump white house started shedding its first high-ranking officials, just 24 days into the new administration. one year ago tonight, the departure of michael flynn, who has since fled plead guilty to lying to the fbi has has become a cooperating witness into the special counsel investigation into the russia attack. tonight one year on we bookend that achievement with the news in the new york times that the president s personal lawyer says when it came time to pay a porn star right before the election to say that she didn t have an affair with donald trump, he found $130,000 in his own pocket and he swears it didn t come out of the campaign or out of the trump organization. that does it for us tonight. we ll see you again tomorrow. now it s time for the last word with lawrence o donnell. good evening, lawrence. good evening, rachel. we have just stepped into john edwards territory. this is a third party making an expenditure for the benefit of the campaign to keep a woman quiet. about her relationship with the candidate. yep. and there was a failed prosecution effort against john edwards for that. they tried to bring a federal prosecution of edwards around the corruption issues around that case. it did not result the case fell apart. the prosecution didn t work. but john edwards also is now no longer a political figure for a lot of the same reasons that they brought that prosecution against him. what s remarkable here is that the trump organization and trump campaign may have felt such pressure that they had to make this public statement, trying to blame the whole thing on michael cohen. this feels like this reporter from the new york times tonight feels like the start of a new chapter in this scandal. certainly nothing that is going to put it to bed. i m sorry. i just said bed. sorry. we have now an fec investigation. fec must investigate this. the violation is of fec law. that s where we are. fec is such a toothless beast at this point. exactly. it s just been completely, completely neutered. you know, in any other more normal time in american political history, no matter who was in charge of congress, this would at least lead to congressional hearings and a congressional investigation. and if they found anything, obviously referral to the justice department and all of that. with this republican-led congress in this scandal environment i don t know who picks this up and runs with it. i just don t. well, the news media will, and the fec will do whatever it does. we will find out. that s right. thanks, lawrence. thank you, rachel. a big fat liar. when is the last time you heard that? high school? it doesn t sound like high school to me. that wasn t my high school. it sounds like elementary school. it sounds like first grade. maybe kindergarten. so anyone who has been comparing the trump white house to high school is way, way, way, way off. it is much more childish than that. the words a big fat liar appear in quotation marks in the washington post tonight describing white house chief of staff john kelly and the person doing that is a white house official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. and that same anonymous white house official said, quote, to put it in terms the general would understand, his handling of the porter scandal amounts to dereliction of duty. anthony scaramucci may have left the building, but his childishness lives on in the white house. a childishness that john kelly was brought into change. he was supposed to change all that into a mature, well run professional white house. that same john kelly is now being called a big fat liar by a white house official who is clearly not afraid of having john kelly find out who leaked that, and one excellent candidate for that particular possible leak is gary cohn. he is a known trump white house leaker and one of the president s economic advisers. and gary cohn has reported in the same washington post article tonight as being a possible replacement for john kelly as white house chief of staff. and all the leaking about john kelly that is now pouring out of the white house these days makes it clear that no one, and i mean no one in that white house is afraid of john kelly. not anymore. the inmates are once again clearly openly running the asylum after what was only a brief period when john kelly was apparently pretending to run the asylum. two versions of what john kelly and the white house staff knew about rob porter were offered today in washington. one was offered under oath. what i can tell you is that the fbi submitted a partial report on the investigation in question in march. and then a completed background investigation in late july that soon thereafter we received requests for follow-up inquiry. and we did the follow-up and provided that information in november. and then we administratively closed the file in january. and then earlier this month we received some additional information. and we passed that on as well. there is the director of the fbi, appointed by president trump testifying under oath that the fbi submitted a partial report on rob porter to the white house in march. and then the fbi completed the background investigation in late july. here is the white house press secretary giving her version of that story four hours after the fbi director told his story under oath. white house press secretary was not under oath. the white house personnel security office staffed by career officials received information last year. and what they considered fob the final background investigation report in november. but they had not made a final recommendation for adjudication to the white house because the process was still ongoing when rob porter resigned. in the view of personnel security office, the report required additional significant investigatory work before personnel office could begin to evaluate the information for adjudication. notice the word that does not appear anywhere in that written white house statement that she was reading. march. the month of march. never appears in anything the white house press secretary said today, and the fbi director said this morning under oath that the fbi submitted a partial report in march. and we know that partial report included the accusations from rob porter s two former wives of physical abuse and violence. we know that the fbi obtained the photograph of rob porter s first wife s black eye in january, and that she says she got that black eye from one punch thrown by her then husband rob porter. the washington post has previously reported that white house counsel don mcgahn knew all what the fbi was finding early last year. don mcgahn obviously didn t care. he obviously did nothing about it. white house chief of staff john kelly did nothing about it. the white house story that the fbi director destroyed today is that the white house has been patiently waiting for the completion of the background check for rob porter s security clearance, the security clearance that was never granted. and they were still waiting for that when the black eye photo was made public last week. as i said earlier, my understanding is any information would have gone to the personnel security office. that office had not completed their office in order to make a recommendation for adjudication to the white house that was still ongoing and therefore recommendation had not been made. you said the specific papers regarding the completion of the background check had not been received. that s part of that process that the white house personnel security office plays, run by career officials. and we hadn t received a recommendation from that office. that s the white house press secretary trying to blur the answer of when the white house received the fbi s final background investigation. the fbi says that was in july. the new part of the white house story today is that it was really the white house personnel security office then that was slowing everything down after the fbi did their work. nbc s peter alexander is reporting tonight that a former senior white house official has said that the white house personnel security office, quote, they do not make decisions, end quote, adding that they don t do vetting. according to that source, once the fbi background checks are completed, the security office might make a recommendation. but it s up to the white house political staff to determine how to proceed. joining us now, peter nicholas, white house reporter for the wall street journal. and betsy woodruff, a politics reporter for daily beast and an msnbc contributor. peter, you were in the team that reported what john kelly had to say about this on monday where he said that s where he has issued the famous quote, it was all done right. that s what john kelly said in your reporting. in the journal s encounter with john kelly to even get that much out of him, what kind of confidence did he show in the way he dealt with this one when he was asked about it. ? well, it was brief interview that my colleague did. he was pretty clear he didn t think there was any fault on the white house s part. what is strange about that is it s at odds with what deputy press secretary ross shaw has said. ross shaw told reporters last week the white house did make mistake. they could have done things better in this instance. so kelly s sunny verdict on how the white house handled it is really at odds with the white house s own messaging. and betsy woodruff, what did the white house know? when did it know? it has all become more crucial, especially in march. what was it that the fbi brought to the white house in march, their preliminary findings? we know from other reporting, but by that time they had the photograph of the black eye. they had all of the reporting that the two former wives gave to the fbi. and they gave that reporting to the fbi under the possible penalties in effect of perjury, speaking of lying to the fbi as a crime. problems have been caused by john kelly, however this mess, however this mess started, is it solved necessarily by replacing him with a new chief of staff? or does that just show there is really so much turnover in this white house it feeds perception of instability. and betsy we have reporting tonight that john kelly and others were considering promoting rob porter, and that is long after the fbi completed its investigation in july. right. and that s why these questions about the way the information that the fbi had worked through the white house and who had access to that information are so vital. now one piece of this that s really important to remember is that the story beneath the story, or a story adjacent to the story is the fact that the infighting in the white house is just extraordinarily ugly. a cold war has almost become a hot war in terms of different factions going after each other. we know that john kelly has made journal reporter for an off-the-record session with rob porter himself who apparently offered some kind of defense for the black eye, saying it involved a struggle over something in a hotel in italy, and it was all an accident. well, it does seem like the white house wanted to rally behind rob porter who was internally very well regarded, very well respected, a popular person inside the west wing. and their initial instinct despite the evidence was to see if they could weather this early on. eventually that position just became unsustainable. they realize that this was a public relations nightmare that they could not handle, and that the only solution was to get his resignation which is what they did. but early on, there was definitely a sense that maybe they can talk to the press and they can portray this in a way that would make it possible for him to stay on. peter nicholas and betsy woodruff, thank you both for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. sure. my dad says our insurance doesn t have that. don t worry - i 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president. you could try telling the truth and firing anyone and everyone who lied about it that would end it. but we know that s not going to happen. not in the trump white house. so tomorrow s white house press briefing will surely include more lies about this story. and at this hour tomorrow night, we will be dissecting tomorrow s lies. and one of the big problems for the white house is that the fbi director christopher wray will be asked about all of this again the next time that he testifies to congress or perhaps sooner than that. the fbi director will be drawn back into even more specific questions about what exactly the fbi told the white house about rob porter in march and then exactly what the fbi told the white house about rob porter in july when they delivered their completed report on rob porter. and as of tonight it seems nothing fbi director christopher wray says about this is going to fit the lies being told by the trump white house. joining us now, william yeomans who spent 26 years at the justice department and was the former chief counsel on the senate judiciary committee. also with us matt miller, former spokesperson for attorney general eric holder and an msnbc contributor. and bill yeomans, what happens next, particularly with the fbi director? surely the next time he is testifying at congress, he is going to be asked about this. reporter mace have access to the director before the next time he testifies to congress. we re going to hear more from him. well, i think we will. and i think what you ve set up really indicates something that s been missing in this whole affair which is serious congressional oversight. this is a situation when congress should really step up. and of course under republican leadership, that is not happening. so, yeah, the fbi director will appear before congress. but there need to be serious oversight hears regarding the clearance process and certainly looking into what exactly happened in this white house. matt miller, what are the answers to the president s questions of what do we do and what s going to happen next? the best thing for him to do would be to come clean, to come out and say exactly when officials in the white house found out about the domestic abuse allegations against rob porter, who knew and what they did about it, and then take corrective action. and anyone that knew and didn t act would be fired and have to leave the white house. the problem for the president is there is no way to end this scandal without addressing this related issue of people having interim security clearances. and there is no way to address that issue without addressing the interim security clearance for his son-in-law, jared kushner. in a lot of ways i think jared is the tail wagging the dog here. they can t give jared a permanent security clearance because he is the subject of an ongoing federal criminal investigation, but they can t yank security clearances for everyone else, people like rob porter and leave jared as the only one with an interim problem. so he s got two big scandals. and can t really address the first one and leave the second one out there hanging. bill yeomans, would replacing the white house chief of staff be the end of this story? no, i don t think so. replacing the after the, which looks increasingly likely would be a start, but, you know, this is a bigger problem. we re hearing stories that there are dozens of staffers in the white house who do not have clearances. and, you know, that s a little bit frightening that we have all these people running around the white house, running the country who can t get security clearances. so i think there needs to be a large scale accounting as to what s happening. but it does seem that john kelly has sufficiently damaged his credibility, his integrity inside the white house that his departure may be a necessary step. matt miller, would that end it? john kelly leaving? no, i don t think it would. because i think john kelly, whatever he did know is probably not the only one. he almost certainly wasn t the only one. obviously don mcgahn is right at the white hot center of this kwv. yeah. you have to think that the deputy chief of staff, joe hagan who is the person don mcgahn typically would come to with information like this, he is in charge of personnel matters. you would think he would know about it. you really have to have a full-scale accounting. it may be that removing john kelly gets a little attention off for a few days. but i think until you have everything aired, you re going to continue to see leaks out of the white house. you re going to see leaks probably out of the fbi eventually, especially if the white house continues to take shots at them. and just the departure of one official won t end this controversy. justice department experts william yeomans and matt miller, thank you both for joining me tonight. really appreciate it. pleasure. thank you. tonight we re going have a very special rewrite. a couple of guys from boston talking about another guy from boston. john kelly is from boston. and the boston globe, his hometown newspaper has been tougher on him than any other newspaper in the country. and kevin collin, boston globe columnist has changed his mind about john kelly. that s coming up. i ll never find a safe used car. start at the new carfax.com show me minivans with no reported accidents. boom. love it. [struggles] show me the carfax. start your used car search at the all-new carfax.com. somesend you and your family overwhelrunning. y can. introducing febreze one for fabric and air. no aerosols. no dyes. no heavy perfumes. it cleans away odors for a pure light freshness. so you can spray and stay. febreze one, breathe happy. than you. imagine if the things you bought every day. earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you ll get a free checked bag. two united club passes. priority boarding. and earn fifty thousand bonus miles after you spend three thousand dollars on purchases in the first three months from account opening plus, zero-dollar intro annual fee for the first year, then ninety-five dollars. learn more at theexplorercard.com that has been used by previous administrations. no, they are not. the processes of the trump administration are unique to the trump administration, including the process of obtaining security clearances for white house personnel like jared kushner. who still does not have a security clearance. some estimates indicate as many as 40 people in the trump white house do not have the security clearance that is required for their jobs. and now the security clearance process has completely undone the trump white house for the last week. we know that white house staffer rob porter was accused of beating both of his former wives and a former girlfriend only because of the fbi background investigation, an investigation that was supposed to clear rob porter for the security clearance that he was never able to obtain. here is what the trump administration s director of national intelligence said about this process today. i think sometimes it is necessary to have some type of preliminary clearance in order to fill a slot. but i have publicly stated if that is the case, the access has to be limited in terms of the kind of information they can be in a position to receive or not receive. so i think that s something that we have to do as part of our security clearance review. the process is broken. it needs to be reformed. joining our squugs ndiscussi john mclaughlin, an msnbc national security analyst. and john, i wanted to get your reaction to today s developments, especially fbi director being in conflict with the white house press secretary about who knew what, when. let s begin there. how do you think this is going to unfold? surely the fbi director knows more and he can tell us more. oh, he clearly knows more at this point. if they have completed the investigation, they have all kinds of details that are germane to the case. and it s kind of astonishing that he would have completed that investigation in july and that we would be where we are today. if the information that they had turn over to the white house was verifiably like anything that has been reported, that would have been an automatic turndown in any other agency that i know about. and so it s kind of astonishing that we re at the point where somehow we re still talking about interim clearances for a person whose background investigation revealed that kind of issue. reporter: the new york times is reporting that at the center of all of this, including the porter scandal is jared kushner in the following way. people familiar with the security clearance process and mr. trump s white house said it was widely acknowledged among senior aides that raising questions about unresolved vetting issues in a staff member s background would implicitly reflect on mr. kushner s status as well, a situation made more awkward because mr. kushner is married to the president s daughter ivanka. your reaction to that. well, you know, i thought about this today. and i certainly agree with what dan coates said, that this process is fundamentally broken. there are traditional problems. the process has always been hard. it takes too long. it s bottlenecked at various places. but with this administration, there are some problems that are peculiar to it. and the main one is that they ve granted enormous access and authority to people who are not yet cleared like jared kushner. so i don t know i was listening to your previous discussion. i m not sure what you do about this except take people out of positions if they cannot get a clearance and they therefore are not entitled to see the information that they re seeing. that s what would have happened in a normal administration. for someone who at this great length, at this great remove had still not passed the security clearance. jared kushner s lawyer is saying that it s not uncommon for the process to take this long with someone who has a lot of foreign entanglements, and there are others, veterans of previous administrations who say they had even more professional foreign contacts than jared kushner and theirs were done in half the time, done in six months, five months. well, he is half right. it s not unusual for someone with very complicated financial picture to take a long time to get cleared. i still help people through this process who are, you know, in need of some assistance or advice. but what is unusual is for someone who takes that long to be granted the kind of access that mr. kushner has been granted. i think that s the unusual thing here. so i can grant that it s not illogical that someone with a complicated financial picture might take a long time. what i can t accept is that you go ahead and give them access to things like the president s daily brief, which i understand mr. kushner sees, and which contains really the most sensitive intelligence that the united states produces. john mclaughlin, thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. thank you. coming up, sarah sanders was not the only woman who spoke in the white house press briefing today. mitch mcconnell s wife made an appearance there. she is the secretary of transportation. the white house press secretary told reporters not to ask the secretary of transportation any questions about the really big story of the day. and unfortunately, the reporters followed that instruction. and that was a mixed opportunity. that is next. mercedes-benz glc with fitness. food. and the pill that starts with f. farxiga, along with diet and exercise, helps lower blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes. lowering a1c by up to 1.2 points. do not take if allergic to farxiga. if you experience symptoms of a serious allergic reaction such as rash, swelling, difficulty breathing or swallowing, stop taking and seek medical help right away. do not take farxiga if you have severe kidney problems, are on dialysis, or have bladder cancer. tell your doctor right away if you have blood or red color in your urine or pain while you urinate. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, genital yeast infections in women and men, serious urinary tract infections, low blood sugar, and kidney problems. stop 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table there are plenty of other republicans in the house of representatives who can do that for him there is no way that this republican president and this republican congress is going to raise the gasoline tax, which funds highway construction and repair in this country. and the reason that the truckers who would carry the heaviest burden in a gasoline tax increa increase increase want the increase is because they know american highways will continue to crumble without an increase in the gasoline tax. the gasoline tax goes into the highway trust fund. and the highway trust fund is on its way to bankruptcy in the year 2021. elaine chao s brief turn at the microphone today was the only thing that resembled a substantive policy discussion in any way. but she also demonstrated that stunning trumpian ignorance that is unique in our history to the trump cabinet. we all want better infrastructure, but unfortunately, there is just not enough money in the world to pay for all the infrastructure. well, first of all, there is enough money in the world. and there is enough money in the united states. how do you think all this infrastructure got here? we bought it. we paid for it. we own it. now we just have to repair and improve it. and republicans do not have a real plan to do that. when the white house press secretary introduced secretary ch chao today, she said this to the white house press corps. i trust that you ll stay on topic and i ll be back up afterwards to answer your questions on the news of the day. that, secretary chao, thank you very much for being here. thank you. i trust that you ll stay on topic. unfortunately, the white house press corps followed their orders today. and only asked the secretary of transportation about the president s infrastructure proposal. no reporter asked elaine chao what is your policy in the department of transportation and in the secretary s office in particular on the employment of political appointees who are credibly accused of beating their wives and their girlfriends? elaine chao was not asked what it feels like to work for a man who refuses to say that punching your wife is wrong. she was not asked what it feels like to work for a man who has repeatedly over the course of his life expressed sympathy for men accused of violence against women, including their wives. she was not asked what it feels like to work for man who actually expressed sympathy and support for a friend of his who was convicted of rape. elaine chao was not asked what it feels like to work for a man who could not bring himself to say one word of sympathy for the former wives of rob porter who told their stories to the fbi. elaine chao was not asked what it s like to work for a man who could look at the picture of colbie holderness s black eye. the picture of a tragedy seen around the world and not be moved to speak one word of sympathy for what he saw in that photograph. elaine chao was not asked what it s like to work for a man who was caught on video bragging about his own favorite methods of sexual assault. elaine chao was not asked what s it like to be in the same room with a man like that. to breathe the same air. she was not asked those questions because the white house press secretary said i trust that you ll stay on topic. and the reporters turned out to be all too trustworthy. the reporters who got to ask elaine chao questions stayed on topic. and i m sure there were many other reporters in that room who would have asked the important questions of the day to elaine chao if they got the chance. because this is no ordinary time to be a reporter covering the trump white house. it has been an especially difficult week for one reporter in john kelly s hometown, boston globe columnist kevin cullen. he praised him a modern military general, a soldier-scholar-statesman, way back when john kelly was chosen to be secretary of the trump homeland security organization. this week he rewrote that to this. kelly sounded like any number of vaguely racist callers to any number of radio talk shows dismissing immigrants as lazy. kevin cullen ended his column with what he thinks should be john kelly s next step. he wrote, john kelly should resign. kevin cullen joins us from boston next as our guest in tonight s rewrite. one click gives you access to discounts on thousands of hotels, cars and things to do. like the occidental at the xcaret destination for 32% off. everything you need to go. expedia. hey, need fast try cool mint zantac. it releases a cooling sensation in your mouth and throat. zantac works in as little as 30 minutes. nexium can take 24 hours. try cool mint zantac. no pill relieves heartburn faster. if you have moderate to severe or psoriatic arthritis, little things can be a big deal. that s why there s otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it s a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of 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begin with saying that i do not know john kelly well. i have met him on two previous occasions very briefly. he was very kind to my son when my son was thinking of joining the military. he ended up my son did end up joining the coast guard. but i met john kelly on another occasion. i just found him to be warm, engaging guy. most of my perception of john kelly, my knowledge of him was based on the recollections and the knowledge of marines i knew. there is no such you would know there is no such thing as a former marine. but i knew people that served with and under him. and they spoke to while hawaiily of him. they talked about him in terms that i could relate to and understand that john kelly was guy that grew up in oak square in brighton here in boston. and son and the son of a postal worker. regular guy, made himself something in the marine corp and rose to a four-star general and eventually became the commander of the u.s. southern command. and from all accounts served well, served loyally, served honorably. and when he came into the trump administration i think i was alone in the boston globe among columnists saying that he s the right guy. he was the right guy particularly for that job in homeland security. and i gave him i thought it was a good thing i guess i m one of those people that thought he would bring some discipline and sort of military discipline to a white house that seemed from the very get-go a little bit out of control, a little bit not knowing where it should go, and i thought he would whip them into shape. to be honest, lawrence, in the intervening year, in the year that has passed things john kelly has done and said has changed my opinion. it began with when he was the head of homeland security. he more or less criminalized noncriminal immigrants. instead of going after criminals with very limited resources in i.c.e., the immigrations customs enforceme enforceme enforcement agency, they decided to go after people and it seemed cruel and the i.c.e. agency should be locking up real criminals. and that didn t happen. john kelly at one point condoned and thought it was funny to make fun of the attacks that president trump routinely makes on the press, on a free press in our country, which incidentally separates us from tim bought dictatorships. and john kelly it hit me the wrong way last year. if you recall, he had a sword and he showed it to the president saying you should use this on the press. and i thought it was it s not what he should have said. and the idea that the president of the united states routinely dismisses and degrades a free press, which is in fact one of the great checks on power in this country, and which doesn t exist in many parts of the world and which should, i found very depressing and very saddening. then next john kelly who sadly knows what it means to be a gold star family, his son robert, a marine corp lieutenant was killed in action in afghanistan in 2010. and yet for all that, i must say that i if we go back to that period when la david johnson, the family of the man who was killed in niger, i thought to myself if john kelly said you know what, instead of making a blind phone call, why don t we have john kelly, a gold star father go down and talk to mrs. johnson, a gold star widow, privately, just the two of them. and in my dreams or in my whatever i think, i could see them embracing, talking to each other, crying with each other. john kelly talking about his son, mrs. johnson talking about her husband. but that didn t happen. instead mr. trump said words that mrs. johnson found offensive. i think if i summarize them, it would have said your husband knew what he was getting into. and the narrative coming out of the white house a congresswoman was in the middle of it and it became a political issue. the congresswoman didn t matter. the only person that mattered, the only feelings that mattered was mrs. johnson. and the person who should have gotten that right was kelly. the story he told about frederica wilson, and you point this out in your column, was completely not true. and i sat there in suspense for 24 hours waiting for the apology that never came. and i was so stunned and disappointed in that moment. that to me was the turning point on john kelly. i was too, lawrence, in the sense that i did and do in my gut still now believe john kelly is a man of honor. and a man of honor would admit he was wrong. but this is the difference, john kelly the way i defined him and understood him he was a military man and then he became a political man and he hitched his wagon to a guy named donald trump. and donald trump never admits his wrong, and his chief of staff apparently never admits he s wrong. i don t think that s good for the country. i think it was difficult for both of us to watch the boston irish guy turn out like this in this situation. we could go on and on like this. kevin cullen, thank you for joining us tonight. thank you, kevin very much. thanks, lawrence. tonight s last word is next. die.or become a sparrow. 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special prosecutor is going to talk to steve bannon, who you spent a lot of time talking to. the special prosecutor has been talking to many of your sources in this book. has the special prosecutor reached out to you to talk to you about either the firing of the special prosecutor or any other elements of this story? he has not. and if the special prosecutor does want to interview you, would you cooperate with that? good question, and i don t know the answer. but i think that the answer is, yes, because i have nothing to hide. everything i know is in the book. what about the sources that are many sources are revealed in the book and many quotes attributed to people. but there are a lot of unattributed quotes. if the special prosecutor would point to the book and say who is the source here, and it s a source i can t reveal, i clearly would not. you know there s no privilege. the special prosecutor could hold you in contempt and you could end up in jail by refusing to answer that. i ve had a lot of threats over the last few weeks. we take them as they come. the i want to go to a passage about don mcgahn that s in your book, because i have to the say, for readers of this book, the detail that the president specifically ordered the firing is just one more little piece that fits into this story completely and the characters behave in the way we understand them from your book. here s reference to don mcgahn, paige 212 of your book. mcgahn tried to explain that, in fact, comey himself was not running the russia investigation, that without comey the investigation would proceed anyway. mcgahn, the lawyer whose job was to issue cautions, was a frequent target of trump rages. typically these would begin as a kind of exaggeration or acting and then devolve into the real thing. now the president is focussed in a vicious fury on mcgahn and his cautions about comey. that s just comey. so we can presume something similar went on with that with the attempt to fire mueller. let me give a slightly different context than the new york times gives. the new york times makes it sound like trump thought about it, sat down, determined that he should fire that he should fire mueller, that he should act on this, and then told mcgahn to cary this out. and that s not untrue. but the difference is, he does this constantly. every day the president is saying he s going to fire somebody. anybody who he feels is has annoyed him, irritated him, gotten in his way, disagreed with him is going to be fired. the firing of mueller was talked about by trump, especially in this june, july period, before his legal team really got in and took over, this became an obsession with the president. he had to get rid of mueller. now but n an obsession with this president becomes, instead of instead of an order, it becomes kind of like wallpaper, it just goes on and on and on. he just repeats and repeats and repeats. is it serious? is it just him spouting off ultimately that s what the special prosecutor will have to decide. and it s a key thing, because the special prosecutor has to prove intent. if he s just a crazy person, which, in part he is, it s going to be very hard to prove intent. so was there a moment in which he directed this to happen? well, actually, yes, but there were hundreds of moments in which he does that and in which everybody sort of deflects. equally, the times has mcgahn threatening to quit. mcgahn has probably threatened to quit a hundred times. actually what they say in even now, mcgahn would like to get out of there, they just can t find somebody else to replace him. so they have to come and each time beg him to stay. you have bannon in here saying quoting him now and attributing it to him, it s not one of the unacknowledged quotes it s bannon saying to you, if he fires mueller it just bring it is impeachment quicker. was that the widespread view in the white house? completely. everybody believed firing mueller would be suicidal. and everybody had to deal with this every day, it was always fire mueller, how can we fire mueller? get rid of this guy? and again, this was regarded as something less than real. it was just the stuff that comes out of the president s mouth uncontrollably and often meaningle meaninglessly. so you re describing a work place they don t take the guy seriously that they have to execute it, but if he pushes it to an order then they have to issue threats to resign? yes. the question is but even that that s always going on. the efforts to resign because nobody wants to be there. so it s this it s a kind of the new york times curiously makes this sound normal. even though what do you mean normal? makes it sound like there is a man who has fought throuthoug something and made a decision. there are no decisions here. it s just blater. of course, blather can become a decision. the comey firing. nobody expected it to happen, and then it happened because he did it on his own. he just went rogue and suddenly it happened. so i believe that everybody expected and continues to expect mueller to be fired. but how that happens is a it s a kind of a three-dimensional thing because every day he s firing mueller. so how does it become how does that go from this kind of, you know, the president presidential gas to the actually happening? it s making that case for his lawyers to try to make that presentation of the character is made virtually impossible because of his job. meaning, a prosecutor and the people looking into this aren t going to believe that a president is just that nutty and flaky and constantly saying things that aren t really? i don t know if that s true. i think that is what is what mueller they ultimately that will be the ultimate question. was there intent here or is or was this just daily stupidity really, incompetence, disregard. there s a passage in here about the everybody in the white house believing that if the investigation moved long term into the trump financial transactions that that would be disastrous for the president. and the president seemed to confirm that by having that be the thing that made him keep saying, i can fire mueller, i can fire mueller. completely. and then at one point, of course, he says he gives an interview to the new york times and he he draws the line. he says, mueller can t go here. you know, can t go into his family finances. and, you know, bannon then pointed out to me afterward bannon makes this noise, he says let s just tell the prosecutor what he can t look at. yes. imagine for us as you know this trump character and i think have conveyed him better than anybody has conveyed him because you get these dimensions that are difficult to capture, all these weird dimensions. imagine him in an interview with the special prosecutor when the special prosecutor says why did you order don mcgahn to have me fired? what does trump say to that? i think it s almost unimaginable, and from the point of view of the prosecutor, it s both you re both going to get things that are immediately and stunningly incriminating, but you re also going to have to step back and say this is so stunningly incriminating that maybe it s not incriminating, maybe he s just that s where we are the insanity defense. playing stupid. the stupidity or insanity defense. i ve asked lawyers all week, what happens if lawyers convince him you can t talk to the special prosecutor, and then the special prosecutor decides to subpoena him and they refuse to respond to a subpoena? is that imaginable to you that he would refuse to respond to a subpoena and if he s held in contempt of court will he respond to that? it s never happened before. i have no idea. i would say because i m a reasonable person, it can t happen and eventually he has to respond. i remember bannon going in there and the president would go, i have executive privilege, i have executive privilege and bannon would say no, you don t. we ve gone through this before. presidents have to testify when they re subpoenaed. i put out on twitter about questions, and one of the biggest questions was about nikki haley. let s look to an interview that nikki haley did today that part of the interview was provoked by something you said last week. let s listen to this. he told the comedian and television host bill maher that he s president sure that the president is having an affair and close readers of his book would be able to figure out who the president is having an affair with. so wolff writes in the book, quote, that the president had been spending an amount of private time with nikki haley on air force one and was seeming to groom her for a national public future. i don t think you have to be sherlock holmes to see what he s insinuating. but i would like to get your response to that insinuation. it is not true. it is highly offensive. and it s disgusting. if you look at what i ve said this before. it amazes me what people will do and the lies they will say for money and power. and in politics, it s rampant. but here you have a man who s basically saying i ve been spending a lot of time on air force one. i have literally been on air force one once and there were several people in the room when i was there. he says i m talking a lot with the president in the oval about my political future. i never talked once with the president about my future and i m never alone with him. do you believe that the u.s. ambassador to the united nations is having an affair with the president? what i know is in the book. what s your reaction to what you just heard? i don t know who the reporter is who is, in fact, making the insinuati insinuation. so you re saying you invited people to read between the lines publically. read between the lines. if i knew it, i would have said it. is she reading between the right lines? that reporter who brought this question to nikki haley. is she reading i m not going to go further than what s in the book. do you think it s reasonable that this reporter brought this question to nikki haley based on what she read in the book? i think all questions are reasonable. so but you did say you believed the president is currently having an affair. not in the book, but you said that publically. i believe the president well, you know it s what is an affair? remember that question? let s put it this way, sex with someone who s not his wife. i i believe there a number of reliable, and i would say authoritative, people in the white house have said that. and nikki haley saying that s not true, it s highly offensive, it s disgusting, seems to agree the implication is that it s her. she seems to be, yes. i don t know. it is literally what s in the book. if you want to infer, i well, i do want to ip to clarify for the public record. you never said nikki haley. you never said any name. i did not. so anyone who has brought nikki haley in this has done so through their own reading? yes. going back to the obstruction case with the president. as you hear these various scenarios being played out and you hear john dowd saying, it s not the president who s going to decide, i m going to decide whether the president agrees to do this interview. do you think this is how this will happen? john dowd will say to the president yes, you can or no, you can t? i think he will. but this is donald trump. he will do what he wants to do, and it s likely he will decide i can go in there and charm these guys, i can sell them. michael wolff thank you for joining us again tonight. really appreciate it. thank you. coming up the, the panel is joining us. they will consider everything that s developed. some of them taking notes during michael wolff s conversation here. we ll see what they think the special prosecutor is going to react to. also adam schiff will join us, that s coming up. how do you win at business? stay at la quinta. where we re changing with stylish make-overs. then at your next meeting, set your seat height to its maximum level. bravo, tall meeting man. start winning today. book now at lq.com coaching means making tough choices. stjim! you re in! y. but when you have high blood pressure and need cold medicine that works fast, the choice is simple. coricidin hbp is the #1 brand that gives powerful cold symptom relief without raising your blood pressure. coricidin hbp. especially in this june, july period, before his legal team really got in and took over. this became an obsession with the president. he had to get rid of mueller. now an obsession with this this president becomes, instead of instead of an order, it becomes kind of like wallpaper, it just goes on and on and on. he repeats and repeats and repeats. that s the instant replay of my interview with michael wolff. joining us now ron kline the former chief counsel to the senate judiciary committee and chief of staff to janet reno. and jill wine-banks. and matt miller. jill, i want to go with you, my discussion with michael, i wish i had a lawyer with us. because there were moments he talked about what the special prosecutor was going to find from this witness donald trump and from others that there was this vague blanket of noise that he described ultimately as wallpaper that was the fire mueller wallpaper and was that really a specific demand to fire mueller and michael was speculating the special prosecutor is going to have to get inside the president s head to figure out what his actual intent was in those statements. what was your reaction to that? i think intent was one of the more interesting parts of that interview. he also said that the president likes to say, you re fired, and he does it all the time. he apparently learned his lesson on the apprentice all too well. as far as intent it s tricky for a lawyer to be able to prove intent. but in this case there are so many acts in further answance t jury can infer intent. and the other problem is if he didn t intent the corrupt firing of mueller and, let s face it, of comey, then if wolff is correct, he sounds like the alternative is the man is crazy. if he s crazy and incompetent and stupid, which are the words michael wolff used then we have to look at the 25th amendment and congress has to stand up and say the man is incompetent. those seem to be the fwo choices he was saying, it was hard to choose intent because he s crazy. that leads up from impeachment possibly to the 25th amendment. possibly it s a lose for trump. and the 25th amendment is mentioned specifically by steve bannon and steve bannon gives it a 33% in his calculations of it actually being used against this president for exactly this kind of stuff in michael wolff s book. ron, jill said a jury can infer intent, which is what i was thinking when i was listening to michael. if this was a normal case, the issues michael wolff was talking about, does he mean it, that would be left to a jury. with the president it s not clear if this gets brought to a jury. it might be brought to congress and in an impeachment proceeding that s one of the things for congress left to decide. donald trump may be crazy, but he s not legally insane. the standard on that is very high. i think mr. wolff s legal analysis is kind of back wards, all due respect. and jill pointed out there are specific acts of obstruction. he wasn t spouting off when he did fire james comey, when he instructed a false statement be produced by don junior about that trump tower meeting. so there are a lot of specific acts. and what mr. wolff calls the wallpaper i think is powerful evidence of intent. the fact that trump is saying we ought to get rid of mueller, do this, that, just shows a focus on stopping the investigation. not about conflict of interest or supervising the justice department, it s about stopping the investigation. that would be powerful evidence of his intent, this is not someone who acts like an ininnocent person, lawrence. that s the most important thing that comes out of the picture that wolff paints. i was struck by that term wallpaper that michael wolff used. it tells us a lot. if you ever listened to the wiretaps of mafia headquarters in new york or boston or different places, the wallpaper was we need to get rid of that guy, and at some point that guy would be gotten rid of with or without a specific order on those mafia wiretaps. but you re all taking notes while michael wolfff was talking. your reaction to what you heard? i was struck by what he called the wallpaper and what we see. we see in other reports a picture of donald trump strained against the legal and ethical constraints of office. you know, constantly kind of lashing out against prosecutors and fbi agents who want to just pursue the rule of law. you see him complaining about it but also taking official acts. that was clear in the new york times story last night. it was when he crossed the line from not just complaining about bob mueller but kwhen he issued the order to fire him. under the statute, you don t have to be successful. you have to take an action where you intend to obstruct justice to be guilty of a crime. you mentioned the wiretaps in mafia cases, we don t have wiretaps in this case, but what bob mueller has is conversation after conversation that aides to donald trump can reproduce. he s taken the aides and braugtd them in for interviews. and to the extent he ever said if james comey doesn t stop this investigation, i m going to fire him. and the likelihood that he talked to an aide like that, is intent. we re going to squeeze in a break here. adam chief, the ranking member of the intelligence committee will join us next. imagine what we can do for glaucoma, even cataracts. if we can use dna to diagnose the rarest of diseases, imagine what we can do for the conditions that affect us all. imagine what we can do for you. here s what happened in the house of representatives today when reporters tried to ask the republican chair of the judiciary committee about the president trying to fire the special prosecutor. what s your reaction to reports that president trump ordered special counsel mueller fired. i m here for a hearing. i don t have anything to comment on any other issues. copy right law is, of course, in the view of the judiciary committee one of their lowest priority issues. but today, for republicans, it was more it was more important than the most important story in washington, the president ordering the firing of the special counsel. charlie dent, who has given up on continuing his congressional career is free to say things like this today, i believe now that this revelation has been made public that there will be increasing pressure to protect mueller. joining us now adam schiff, the ranking member of the house intelligence committee. congressman, thank you for joining us tonight. i really appreciate it. i have to say, as a house watcher, i think you and i probably have never heard someone say i can t talk about the most important issue of the day i have to go to a copyright hearing. that s a new one. it is hard to top copyright in terms of interest. i want to get your reaction to something that michael wolff just said on this show. it s an issue that in a criminal case would be left to a jury and an impeachment case would be brought to you. and that is, if there is an obstruction of justice case that is presented to the house of representatives and one of the elements of an obstruction of justice case is that the president ordered the firing of robert mueller, what michael wolff just said is he was saying that all the time. he was saying fire mueller the time. i want to fire mueller all the time. michael wolff said it was like wallpaper so people did not take it seriously and it might, in the president s mind, have never been a specific order. and since it wasn t carried out he may not believe he issued the order. apparently don mcgahn took it seriously and was willing to resign rather than carry it out. i wouldn t describe this as wallpaper based on what the new york times the the washington post and others have reported. what leaps out at me about this disclosure, this new report, is how much in common it has with the comey situation. with the firing of comey what the president had at his disposal were memos from rod rosenstein and from jeff sessions that provided a pretext, another explanation to give to the public for why comey was being fired. that is, he treated hillary clinton unfairly. now that is obviously not very plausible and the one who made it clear that was not the real motivation was the president himself. but similarly here with the attempt to fire bob mueller, you had the explanations brought up for him, whether it was over golf dues that bob mueller had a dispute with the golf club over or it was over some the fact that the mueller firm worked with jared kushner, even though mueller didn t. so this is another effort to present pretext to conceal the real reason for getting rid of mueller. that does go to the intent in an obstruction case. and the fact that the president wanted to get rid of jeff sessions because jeff sessions recused himself and why did that bother the president because it led to bob mueller. that wasn t about dues at the golf club, that was about the president perceiving the russia investigation as a threat and wanting to act on that. and in the sessions case, you also have michael wolff and other sources quoting the president as saying things like where s my roy cone ahen and wh going to protect me, expecting the attorney general to protect him. it strikes me that the use of that word protect would be of special interest in an obstruction case. i think that s exactly right. the president made clear that what he believes he s entitled to in an attorney general, not someone who s loyal to the department, to the american people, but someone who s loyal to him. and not just on a garden variety issue but on the russia investigation, which is paramount for him. so i think all of this does go to intent. and certainly, bob mueller, this new york times and the washington post story is not news to him because he s been interviewing all these people in the white house and around the president. and i think ron is exactly right. there s probably a lot we don t know that the special counsel does that relates to the issue of the president s intent. how secure is bob mueller s job, do you think in the view of congress at this point? i know when he was first appointed you got universal acclaim for him, especially on the senate side. there wasn t a single republican senator that had a bad word to say about him, in fact, most of them were gushing praise. that has quieted down. and today no screams of outrage from the republicans in congress, no one rushing to a microphone to say this must not happen, he must not be fired. has robert mueller s support among republicans in congress collapsed? could he be fired? i wouldn t say it s collapsed. but you see a weakening of the spine of many of the folks in the gop of congress who when the first suggestions were made that the president could fire mueller and we had no idea that the president could try to fire him, you had a ground swell that was in favor of bipartisan legislation that would secure mueller s job, that would provide a right of appeal by mueller if he were fired. no one has act odd thed on that majority what s happened is that there has been an escalation of attacks on mueller in the right wing blogs, and there s been a wholesale attack on the fbi in order to discredit the investigation. all of that is a signal to the white house, unfortunately, that they might shrug if he took the step of firing mueller. people need to speak out now. people that are asked what they think about this, they need to speak out now and it s more important than ever for republicans in congress to say this is a red line that must not be crossed that would provoke a constitutional crisis that would bring down this administration. don t go there. because lawrence i think depending on where the special counsel investigation goes to, if the special counsel for example is looking at money laundering as i believe he should, you could see another outburst, outrage by the president that results in another order to fire bob mueller and the whole cascade of events that would bring about. congressman adam schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. appreciate it. thank you, lawrence. does the president still want to fire robert mueller? michael wolff believes the president has not stopped thinking about firing robert mueller. more on that next. 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(gasp) (singsong) budget meeting! sweet. if you compare last quarter to this quarter. various: mmm. it s no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. wessential for vinyl, of philly, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. because there are options. like an unjection™ . xeljanz xr. a once daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don t start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. needles. a must for vinyl. but for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. an unjection™ . bob mueller should be allowed to finish his job and this president should not be allowed to fire him just on a whim. i agree in this case with the president s lawyer, if the president had carried through on that threat it would have created chaos. the actions of this president seem to not help his case that there s no there there. these are t not the actions of an individual who has nothing to hide. the wall street journal reports that the lawyers have been looking into a 1990 s ruling. in that ruling, the independent counsel seeking records, the court ruled that prosecutors hoping to overcome arguments of executive and presidential privilege must show that such information contains important evidence that isn t available elsewhere. also foreign policy is reporting on how the white house war on the fbi was born. president donald trump pressed senior aids last june to devise and carry out a campaign to discredit senior fbi officials after those officials were likely to be witnesses against him as part of robert mueller s investigation. back with was is our panel and joining us is jennifer an msnbc contributor. the the wall street journal is reporting in june, which is when the new york times reported last night when the president ordered the firing of robert mueller. the president is saying we have to attack the higher ranking people in the fbi because the special prosecutor is going to use them apparently to corroborate james comey s story. this reminds me of law school, find all the bits of evidence of obstruction of justice you can, and the person who does the most gets the a we can all get the a the attempts to get rid of the attorney general. the successful attempt to get rid of the fbi director. the attempt to get rid of andrew mccabe. the attempt now to smear the fbi. it goes on and on and on. you know, i don t think this excuse that he s somehow a babbling fool is going to get him off the hook. for one thing he told us, he got a 30 out of 30 on the mental exam. he s in tiptop shape, he s got a great brain. so the president is not going to allow himself to get off on the crazy defense. i think this is an embarrassment of riches for the special counsel. there are so many pieces of intent. he wants to cripple the investigation because he s afraid of what they would find. ron klain, using the espy case, i believe that was about records instead of testimony and when you re trying to use executive privilege and you re saying you can only have this if you have no other way of getting it, that s something applying to records as opposed to actual testimony. that s true, lawrence, and further, in that case on paige 28 it says this would be a different case if the person under investigation was a senior white house aide, oops, here we are. then it goes on further and says in such a case it would be easy for a prosecutor to prove a need for the information. so i do not think the president and his lawyers will get any real protection from this espy case. it s a fantasy to think this case is going to help them. the court carved out the exact situation we have here and said in that situation it should be easy for the prosecutors to get the information they want. jill, this strikes me as the thing you tell a client, there s something you can hang their hat on, and maybe you ll get a hearing day ovat a court. they might get a hearing, but the espy case is not that much from nixon, which made it clear the president cannot avoid producing evidence if it is about a crime. and that s what mueller is looking at. he s not looking at something to do with political advice or policy advice, any advice he might have gotten from staff. it s about how do i commit a crime? how do i obstruct this case? how do i stop the investigation? that is clearly within the per view of what the supreme court said the president must comply with. i think this would be very unwise for the lawyers of the president to be holding out this false hope, i agree with ron this is not going to get them very far. matt miller, of course, the special prosecutor knows more about this than we do, since these two stories we re talking about here happened in june. i m wondering if the special prosecutor is looking at evidence tonight and has testimony from white house staff saying the president ordered the firing of the special prosecutor in june and, in june, the president told us we had to start attacking the higher ranking people in the fbi because they will be used in the investigation against the president. those two stories could be coming together in this overall investigation. i assume that s right. he obviously knows much more than we do. i think one of the lessons of the new york times story from last night. look, all the exculpatory evidence for the president is basically all out there. we know all of that evidence. the white house has been very clear about making their public defense for the president s conduct. the evidence that s damaging to him, we found out last night, a very significant new piece of evidence and it raises the question, how much more is out there that we don t know. i think if you read between the lines of that story, when you talk about obstruction of justice, it s not just the president that has potential legal liability here. there are all the aides that could have participated in one of these schemes, who could be indicted for conspiracy to obstruct justice. you look at the story last night you see steve bannon, reince priebus, don mcgahn, all of whom share the same lawyer, all of whom are portrayed in the story, at least in the instance where the president wanted to fire mueller as standing up and saying no. you read that as three aids that if there is an attempt to obstruct justice here s an instance they said no and can t be held liable. according to michael wolff the president has not given up the dream of firing robert mueller. when we come back after this break let s go through the scenario if the president actually does fire robert mueller. we ll be right back. that feels nothing like a back seat? why give it every feature you could want, along with a few you didn t know you needed? it s simple. you can build a car, or you can build a cadillac. come in now for this exceptional offer on the cadillac ct6. get this low-mileage lease on this 2018 cadillac ct6 from around $549 per month. visit your local cadillac dealer. woman: where are we taking him? i have no clue. we re just tv doctors. if this was a real emergency, i d be freaking out. we are the tv doctors of america. together with cigna reminding you to go, know, and take control of your health. schedule your annual check-up today. to go, know, and take control of your health. not in this house. cause that s no average family. that s your family. which is why you didn t grab just any cheese. you picked up kraft mozzarella with a touch of philadelphia for lasanyeah! kraft. family greatly. try the new bacon, egg, and cheese on brioche. panera. food as it should be. everybody says no collusion, there is no collusion. now they are saying did he fight back? did he fight back? what fight back. you fight back. it s obstruction. jennifer ruben, if the president does continue to move against mueller and eventually pulls it off meaning he fires rod rosenstein and does whatever he has to do in the justice department to get someone there to fire the special prosecutor, will republicans and congress take a stand against that? i have come to the conclusion that they will not. now firing mueller, of course, doesn t end the investigation. the fbi goes on, whoever replaces rosenstein can replace the special prosecutor, that was a lesson of watergate, simply firing cox did not end the matter. so the investigation will frank li ly go on. they are not being passive. they are come police sl come po. you know who is colludincolludi? the white house and devin nunes. that group of people that tolerate that behavior, mr. speaker of the house paul ryan that allows nunes to have his post will not take up impeachment. these people will not do anything. we ll stumble along until we get to the midterms and people of the united states can decide whether they want enablers or a democratic congress. so i think we keep hoping for them to kind of figure it out or hoping it will be the straw that breaks the camel s back. it isn t. nothing is. they are not world of devin nunes and they are not, i think, unfortunately going to come around and do their constitutional duty. if the president reached down far enough and found someone after firing rod rosenstein or whoever it takes and said to that person you re going to be the acting deputy attorney general and empowered to fire the special prosecutor and i want you to disband the investigation, just completely disband it, could he do that? well, he can certainly try. we know that in fact, the president did a version of this when he fired sally yates early on in the administration, reached down far enough to find someone that would do it and got it done and i assume that s what he ll do. i think jennifer is right. ultimately, you can t make this all go away. he cannot escape accountability sooner or later. jill, did you have to consider this, that the possibility of nixon actually getting someone to completely not just fire the special prosecutor but disband it? well, we actually were abolished. if you remember the headlines on the day, the president fired cox and abolished the office. we were able to go on for two reasons, one is they didn t actually borrow from the office so we showed up on sunday and monday but by tuesday we were reappointed and a new special prosecutor was appointed. the public pressure forced the president to reverse course and appoint a new special proos cser and allow us to continue. it is true it could end up badly, though. jill wine banks gets a very important last word on this subject tonight. thank you-all for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. thanks. tonight s last word is next. during or after treatment. entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. this condition has not been reported with entyvio. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio. if your uc or crohn s treatment isn t working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. entyvio. relief and remission within reach.
former u.s. attorney. julia, this is your reporting. you re part of the team at nbc news that discovered this approach. what more do we know about it? lawrence, on the one hand it seems obvious. we know two weeks ago special counsel robert mueller delivered a scathing indictment of 13 russian hackers not just hackers but influencers. those were people able to get into social media and influence the way the election was being talked about to sow some distrust in the process. but what we have that s significant here is that a lot of information has recently been turned over to robert mueller from the intelligence community. this is information that includes the electronic signatures, malware the methods i don t think so. there s never been a precedent for the united states indicting an elected foreign leader, even a country we dislike like russia. so i don t think we re going to see that. i think it s important to focus on the significance of this development. these wikileaks, these e-mails were the centerpiece of donald trump s fall campaign. there were 66 days in the fall campaign, he talked about them 146 times, more than he talked about infrastructure. these were core trump campaign weapons built in russia, deployed in the united states. they hurt the clinton campaign, a lot of them were released the day the access hollywood came out, as an effort to distract from that. so if the mueller investigation is a witch hunt, getting the people with the e-mails is capturing the broomstick. we are getting close to the heart of the matter. i think i learned the phrase unindicted cocon spospirator in would be implications for intelligence gathering and sources and the intelligence community will have real interest in what comes out and how it s presented. ordinarily the justice department might consult with the state department, the cia, other organizations in government and ultimately maybe the white house to determine if a course of action should be puffer sued in a case. here because of the context which we re operating because the president himself is the subject of an investigation it creates a difficult situation to figure out a platform for having those kinds of conversations. julia, your reporting has some information about the complexities that paul fishman was just talking about. tell us what you learned about how the special prosecutor is approaching what is really a complex decision whether to indict or not, in this situation, no matter what the evidence is. that s right, lawrence. there are a lot of complexities, it s not just wlrnt to indict, but also whether or not to unseal that indictment. it could be he decides to go forward with the charges and place them under seal in a way we would never know about them. it could be because a lot of the information that leads to the charges, especially if they involve someone like vladimir putin himself, they would have been gathered through such sensitive methods that to disclose that information would actually damage a lot of the capabilities of u.s. national security and the u.s. intelligence community. another thing when we re talking about the president, in order to do this kind of indictment that would have national security implications, one important one to the look at is an indictment against chinese hackers that the justice department filed in 2014, these are hackers that they knew they d never be able to bring to the united states to put through our courts. but they did it in a way to say look we see the countries, we know the governments may be behind this and we want to make a stand and show all the information we re able to bring. it s more of a statement. and they found in 2014, it was important to do that even aside from all of the diplomatic repercussions and that is exactly what they may do in this case, there are diplomatic repercussions for an indictment like this but they would do it in order to show russia that they can see everything they re doing and it s not going unnoticed and they think that might protect them going forward in future elections. ron cline, one of the considerations you can imagine in some other administration is that other administration would have taken some sort of action against russia for doing this and, therefore, not welcome the indictments because they have another way of dealing with this. we have pretty clear public information at this point that this administration has done absolutely nothing about it. and is determined to do nothing about it. so it could be that robert mueller s indictments might be the only thing that actually hit russians on this. i think that s right, lawrence. i mean, i think, notwithstanding what julia and paul said, this is a very unusual case. congress has passed sanctions against russia, the president refuses to impose them. the head of the national security agency was on the hill saying i don t have any orders to do something to clamp down on russia. senators on both sides of the aisle were perplexed by those orders. so i think if america is going to make a statement that this conduct by the russians is unacceptable, the effort to hijack the elections, that statement has to come from the special counsel, it puts him in a difficult and unprecedented situation, but he is the person who s going to have to stand up for america if our president won t. paul fishman i want to get your perspective on this as someone who made that decision, to pursue a federal prosecution or not. this is fascinating because if you do indict these russian hackers, indict them individually, high likelihood you ll never have to go to prosecution, they ll never submit to the jurisdiction, come to this country so they re never prosecut prosecuted. so, therefore, do you use a lower standard for indictment because in the back of your mind i m thinking i m never going to have to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt, or given the visibility of a case like this and the importance of it, do you use a higher standard for indictment? i think the justice department s practice is the right one and it s the ethical norm to which all federal prosecutors are sworn to subscribe, which is the only time you can bring a criminal case is if you are confident you can prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. that s the constitutional standard. that s not what you need to get an indictment, to get an indictment you need praobable cause. that s not the way bob mueller was trained, the kind of prosecutor he s been in his career. if that happened, i would be surprised. i think as julia said there is a reason to bring an indictment like that in a case like this. if you think back to when this investigation started, back before bob mueller was appointed, the one crime that everyone knew had been committed was the hacking of the dnc. so it ap not surprising at all i think that bob mueller s charter has included trying to figure out who s responsible for the hack, who s responsible in russia and whether anyone in america was a chris christocons before or after that hack occurred. thank you all for joining the discussion tonight. really appreciate it. coming up, today s episode of white house chaos, the president surprised his own staff by declaring he is going to take executive action that could start a trade war and create a worldwide recession. and the president might be dumping his national security advisor while still threatening his attorney general. the chaos continues. don t we need that cable box to watch tv? nope. don t we need to run? nope. it just explodes in a high pitched yeahhh. yeahhh! try directv now for $10 a month for 3 months. no satellite needed. was a success for lastchoicehotels.comign badda book. badda boom. this year, we re taking it up a notch. so in this commercial we see two travelers at a comfort inn with a glow around them, so people watching will be like, wow, maybe i ll glow too if i book direct at choicehotels.com . who 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management. today white house chief of staff john kelly, who was president s first security of homeland security attended an event for the department of homeland security to join a panel discussion of former secretaries celebrating the 15th anniversary of washington s youngest bureaucracy, the department of homeland security. i would just open by saying i have almost no right to be up here on this stage. i was in the department you have every right to be here. thank you. i miss every one of you every day. truly, at six months the last thing i wanted to do is walk away from one of the great honors of my life being the secretary of homeland security but i did something wrong and god punished me i guess. john kelly became white house chief of staff after reince priebus failed to contain the chaos. since john kelly took over the job the chaos has only gotten much, much worse. axios report that president trump is in a bad place, mad as hell about the chaos wiand the sense that everything is unraveling. nbc news reports that another top official may be leaving. the white house is preparing to replace h.r. mcmaster as national security advisor as early as next month. and reports that gary cohen, could also be headed for the exit after the president defied coh his advise and announced today he plans to have tariffs on imported steel and aluminum. we re going to be instituted tariffs, perhaps some of you folks will be here. unlimited period. 25%, sir? it will be 25% for steel, 10 f10% for aluminum. and it will be for a long period of time. 25 for steel, 10 for aluminum. it s being written now. if that looked to you like the president was making up on the spot, that s the way it looked to some white house staffers who were surprised by that. the plan was not to announce that, according to some reports. the only way the president can raise tariffs by executive order is to cite a national need to do that, otherwise congress could pass legislation to block the president s action if the president actually does take this action that he announced today. the stock market reacted badly to it today, dropping 420 points because wall street knows that tariffs are taxes. thoand those taxes are not p by countries they re paid by american consumers, in effect. wall street knows that tariffs increase the cost of imported goods and increase the cost of goods in the united states. the president got zero support, not surprisingly, in congress today. here is the reaction of senator orrin hatch, who has jurisdiction over international trade and tariffs. this could turn everything the other way. that s going to bite the american citizens with higher taxes, higher costs, and it s going to affect the whole international trading system. i m very upset about it as you can see. joining us now kimberly atki atkins and david frum. and, kimberly, this report from inside the white house that the president is upset about the chaos situation as it was revealed today and has the feeling that things was unraveling, which was a feeling i think available to him on day one of his presidency. look, this is a chaos president. it was a term i believe coined by jeb bush. in a way the president likes that. he likes doing things differently, keeping everybody and everything on their toes. he even likes some of the internal push and pull that can happen, but i think what we ve seen over the last week really exceeded that. and if the announcement of this tariff was meant to change the subject, it actually has done quite the opposite. it seems to have caused a lot more consternation both within the white house with gary cohen, someone who contemplated leaving and was urged by republicans to stay in there because they didn t know who else would come in and tl and they wanted him to stay on and be a stabilizing force. possibly leaving over this again because of the impact it s likely to have on a lot of u.s. companies and potentially cost u.s. jobs in that sense. so it doesn t seem to be getting any better. it s also worth noting that the ultimate decision in the very hasty announcement was made while general kelly was at the homeland security department participating in this event. he sort of was out of the office and all of a sudden this came down while he wasn t there to sort of oversee and keep things in order. so it s just every day it seems to be a new series of crises within this white house that is keeping the president from sticking to the agenda that he wants to stick to. david frum, there s two ways to talk about the tariff announcement today. one is the policy of it, which hasn t been thought through by the president. but the other is the chaos. the chaotic way which it all tumbled out and no one in the white house was planning to do it that way. coupled with the chaos of the churning of personnel, hope hicks s departure, now national security advisor seems to be on his way out. the president likes surprising but there will be nothing less surprising than the outcome of what he s done. the last time the united states experimented with steel sherita in 2002, they lasted 30 months. the best estimate of the impact of those tariffs on americans was a loss of 200,000 jobs which was greater than the total employment in the steel industry at this time. at this point steel employs fewer people. the aluminum, it hits beverages, cars and construction, too. the consequences of this inside the united states are going to be tough. the consequences for the world are going to be the tougher. the president, i think, imagines that he s hitting china. but china exports relatively little steel to the united states. the biggest exporter of steel to the united states is canada. in third place is south korea. and just to think about this, yesterday on the editorial page of the wall street journal proposed a plan for a pre-emptive attack on north korea, which has to weird people in south korea out. but the second thing is what they got today, which is a trade war attack on a south korean industry by their supposed friend and protector, the united states. kimberly on the national security advisor front this is a position when filled does not require senate confirmations so it s a job that can go to anyway, of course, we all remember that president trump s first choice for that job, michael flynn has now pled guilty to federal crimes of lying to the fbi. it s a job that doesn t require senate confirmation, but as we ve seen from that should require some vetting because it s an important position and you don t want to get a warning from the justice department that your national security advisor is susceptible to blackmail the way president trump did and you don t want him getting indicted but this is an example the president putting someone in who he thought would be good, a general, but that seemingly not working out and general mcmaster sort of seeking an exit and the white house sort of helping facilitate that. what s coming now, rapid departures. look in any presidential administration, there is some turnover, particularly at the beginning, but this is exceeding what is normal by any standard. and it s becoming really difficult to think about who is going to replace the people in these positions who are people who can who can be vetted enough, who are people who can pass security clearances, we ve seen that be a problem, who are people who want to do the job and who are people who won t be rejected because in the past at some point they have said something not nice about president trump when he was a candidate. they re really running out of folks to run the white house and it s reaching a critical point here. david frum, we saw president trump rebuke h.r. mcmaster recently in a tweet, which is welcome to the trump cabinet, that happens to a lot of them, but it s not clear at all what his status is now. we have a tonight national security council spokesman that says any reports that mcmaster is on the way out is fake news. this is someone quoting the president saying that mcmaster is doing a great job. the washington post reported a few minutes ago, in the second appearance of the oval office today, why are you here you were here already today. the national security advisor pops in and out whenever there s news to tell the president. so people the president is not on speaking terms with, his attorney general, national security advisor, his chief of staff, what is this middle school? the president can t get along with people, these are all his appointees he can remove him. not so much the attorney general but certainly the chief of staff and the national security advisor. i don t get this mean girls approach to management where it s let s communicate to them they re unpopular and they ll go away. thank you both for joining us. vladimir putin announces a scary sounding weapons system today that may be a video game, and to make his point he targeted florida and the president of the united states spends considerable time on florida golf courses but he had absolutely nothing to say about that threat from vladimir putin today. i m jimmy, this is my definition of fresh since 1983. we re all under one roof now. congratulations. thank you. how many kids? my two. his three. along with two dogs and jake, our new parrot. that is quite the family. quite a lot of colleges to pay for though. a lot of colleges. you get any financial advice? yeah, but i m pretty sure it s the same plan they sold me before. well your situation s totally changed now. right, right. how bout a plan that works for 5 kids, 2 dogs and jake over here? that would be great. that would be great. that okay with you, jake? get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change from td ameritrade investment management. the mountain like i used to. i even accept i have a higher risk of stroke due to afib, a type of irregular heartbeat not caused by a heart valve problem. but whatever trail i take, i go for 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secretary was asked today about the president calling his attorney general general disgraceful in this tweet yesterday, why is ag jeff sessions asking the inspector general to investigate potentially massive fisa abuse. will take forever, has no prosecutorial power is already late with reports on comey et cetera isn t the ig an obama y guy? disgraceful. so that led to these questions today. does the president want to get rid of his attorney general. not that i know of. as it relates to the tweet could you relab rate on the relationship between the president and his attorney general. the president has made his frustrations very clear, i don t have anything else to add. as usual she doesn t have anything else to add. she may be forced to add something if questioned by the special prosecutor. the special prosecutor has been taking a look on the attacks of the attorney general after the attorney general recused himself from the russian investigation. robert mueller is investigating whether the attacks against jeff sessions is an effort to obstruct justice by trying to force the attorney general to resign. the postreports in recent months, mueller s team has questioned witnesses in detail about trump s private comments and state of mind in late july and early august of last year around the time he issued a series of tweets belitting his attorney general, these people said. the thrust of the questions was to determine whether the president s goal was to oust sessions in order to pick a replacement who would exercise control over the investigation. back with us ron klain and david frum. ron, you ve been in this position working in the justice department. your reaction to where this investigation might lead in terms of obstruction of justice with the president s attack s o his own attorney general. yeah, lawrence, it s clear that the president fired jim comey as an effort to obstruct justice but obstructing justice wasn t enough for the president he was set on obliterating justice and taking control of the investigation in a way that does harken back to watergate. the horrible thing, lawrence, is we have an attorney general who when i worked at the judiciary committee was rejected for a job because he was so racist, who lied to the committee twice and has to be out of the russia investigation who was the god father of trump s anti-immigration thing. the horrible thing is not that he s our attorney general. the horrible thing is we re rooting for the guy. it s like trying to figure out which creature we re rooting for. that s where the investigation is right now. the president has given new meaning to the word disgraceful calling his attorney general disgraceful. it is so beyond imagining, but it is part of this is sort of melt down that you re seeing. there s a story today that hope hicks is now floating a memoir. and she s claiming that she s floating the memoir based on a diary she kept inside the white house. i hope for her sake that is a false report because if the president s communications adviser has been keeping a diary, that s not something she s able to sell. that is something that has to be subpoenaed. ron klain talk about that about. it s one of the interesting developments when you re working in a world that s subject to things like investigations by special prosecutors. they have a right to obtain everyone s notes about basically anything they demand to see their notes on. they do. there could be claims of executive privilege, although executive privilege in hope hicks diary would be an interesting claim for sure. but if that diary exists, as david said, it s going to be exhibit 1 in a lot of things that s going on. we have a president who seems to be dedicate today obstructing justice, a president where the most compelling evidence of his guilt in this russia matter is his own conduct in trying to end the investigation into the russian matter. i mean, an innocent person would want the investigation to complete and exonerate him where he attacks his attorney general, fires his fbi director, attacks the deputy attorney general who s overseeing this, points to the man s guilt. let me make a point about executive privilege. it s possible that executive privilege can be waived. but if the president is communicating with his attorney general in the open, on twitter, there s a question as to whether he s already not waived his executive privilege claim. that s something we ll hear more about in the months ahead. let s listen to what republican senator lindsey graham had to say today about the president attacking jeff sessions. let me make it real clear to the president about this. jeff sessions cannot conduct an investigation of anything related to the 2016 election. the attack on attorney general sessions was unwarranted. i think he s doing his job with integrity. these attacks are unwarranted and inappropriate. because he had a conflict. he did the right thing stepping aside. it s so strange, we heard it all before. it feels like we could have done this same segment months ago. yeah, maybe, in fact, we did, lawrence. but i have to correct something that senator graham said. jeff sessions is recused not because he was part of the 2016 campaign, but because he lied twice, two different times at the senate judiciary committee, about contacts he personally had with russians during the campaign. this tie between the trump campaign and the russians, between the russians and the nra and the trump campaign, the evidence of this is getting stronger and stronger every day, and the threads are unraveling. that s what bob mueller is onto, that s what this new report by julia is about. i think we can really see the evidence really coming together in a powerful way in which the russians influenced the trump campaign and our election. ron klain gets the last word on the president s attack on his attorney general, but gentlemen i assume we ll reconvene on this same subject in the not too distance future. ron klain, david frum thanks for joining us. coming up, vladimir putin issues a nuclear threat a nuclear threat to the items tod united states today and the president of the united states does not say one word about it. a hilton getaway means you get more because you get a break on breakfast get an extra day by the pool get to spend more time together get more moments to remember there are some things you can only get when you book with us. get more from your spring break getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com if yor crohn s symptoms are holding you back, and your current treatment hasn t worked well enough, it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn s. entyvio works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or 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putin. fighting about which one of them has the biggest missile. here is donald trump at the state of the union address. as part of our defense, we must modernize and rebuild our nuclear arsenal. hopefully never having to use it, but making it so strong and so powerful that it will deter any acts of aggression. and so, of course, the other insecure man with the weaker military and the weaker economy has to do it too. today in the russian equivalent of a state of the union address vladimir putin said russia has developed new nuclear weapons one is an intercontinental cruise missile and the other a torpedo. today vladimir putin said a giant increase in spending, could believing health care and at the same time announced this massive new spending on nuclear weapons. putin insisted they already exist but instead of showing the weapons, he shows an animation of what the new nuclear cruise missiles could do with the route of the missile ending over florida where the president of the united states is known to spend so many of his weekends on golf courses. moscow has not come close to such an overt rhetorical threat against the united states since the darkest days of the soviet unio union. all presidents have stood publically against threats from moscow but not the current president of the united states. but, of course, donald trump continues to behave as if he is owned by vladimir putin. he did not say a single word about the putin threats today. here is some of an interview nbc s megyn kelly conducted with vladimir putin in moscow today after putin s announcement of those weapons. several analysts in the west have said this is the declaration of a new cold war. are we in a new arm s race right now. translator: my point of view is the individual who said that a new cold war have started are not really analysts they do propaganda. if you were to speak about arm s race, then an arm s race began at the time and moment when the u.s. opted out of the ballistic missile treaty. some are suggesting you tested it and failed and that s why you only showed animations of it today and have not yet produced any actual videos. translator: are you talking about icbm s. yes. translator: as a matter of fact every weapons system discussed today surpasses and avoids an anti-missile defense system. but you ve tested it? translator: the test was excellent. some of them still have to be fine tuned and worked on, others are available to the troops and already are battle ready. for the record right now do you have a workable icbm that s powered by nukes that you tested successfully? translator: all of the tests were successful, it s each of the weapons systems is at a different stage of readiness, one of them is on combat duty, it s with troops. nbc news says megyn kelly will have more reporting from russia in the coming today. when we come back, whether the united states faces a new nuclear threat from russia or whether vladimir putin is playing video games. your digestive system has billions of bacteria, but life can throw them off balance. try align extra strength, the #1 doctor recommended probiotic brand. with 5 times the good bacteria to re-align your system. re-align yourself, with align. because i want my children to know it s all so that they can have a better life. oh my gosh. this is amazing. we re so much closer to home ownership. us in a myriad of ways. we all knew about the cyber attacks that president trump has refused to respond to in any way. today this nuclear threat that president trump also refuses to respond to in any way. what is your assessment of what vladimir putin revealed today? well, i think vladimir putin revealed a brilliant example of theater. what this is is a component of russia s hybrid war strategy. to amp up propaganda, political warfare, and everything just short of an actual military operation. but by doing that, what he did was propaganda. and it was really not for our consumption. it was for the consumption of the russian people. you a did he was spell pout russia has nuclear weapons and they have nuclear weapons capable of reaching the united states which they have had since the 1950s. there s nothing that he showed even with the nuclear cruise missile coming around that would be any new capability that we don t know about. we know about the intercontinental ballistic missile. we knew about the nuclear powered cruise missile they want to use which would dive around these air defenses. any of these weapon systems, even if they were moved into an operational position works show the united states and russia are in the same status quo since the beginning of the cold war. so how would you rank the nuclear capability of the two countries? the united states and russia? one to one. you have to understand, we have an arsenal of for you,000 active atomic weapons. and russia has a few less than we have but it doesn t matter. this is what the basis and dynamic of nuclear deterrence is all. about at one point in my career i had to work a short tour at a nuclear command post. they bring you down, suit you down and show a full scale simulated attack on the united states with everything in the russian arsenal. it is the end of the world. so deterrence is that mission. neither president will be talking seriously about that. they will give an advantage in a dr. strange lovian way. it is never going to happen. it is just show. what about the cyber internet vladimir putin doesn t talk about? the fakes actually carries out, are the ones he does not talk about? that s russia s real capacity that we know they have. it is not just their cyber capability. they have a 70-year, now 80 plus year history of political and propaganda warfare in which cyber systems have just managed to water temperaturize our democratic norms and use they will against us. what happened in the 2016 election was not so much the united states being affected 20 cyber warfare. it was that the united states has free and fair snem which those systems can infiltrate us and use our own opinions against us. that s what they ve really harnessed. democratic countries don t do that. evil dictatorial regimes do that and russia has just proven they re an eel dictatorial regime. and we re back to senator blumenthal. he said what do they have on the president? that s what he s wondering. what do they have on president trump that leaves president trump silent in moments like this. i ve just completed a new book. i say that donald trump is in debt in some way to vladimir putin. there is no way that anyone would insult literally all of our allies, nato, the european union, and leave vladimir putin, former kgb director, unscathed. something has to be there. malcolm nance. thank you for joining us. thank you. don t we need that cable box to watch tv? nope. don t we need to run? nope. it just explodes in a high pitched yeahhh. yeahhh! try directv now for $10 a month for 3 months. no satellite needed. at planters, we put 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with a bipartisan group yesterday. the president tweeted, good dinner with the nra. meanwhile, republicans in the georgia legislature removed a tax break for delta airlines to punish delta for ending a discount for the nra. delta is based in atlanta but the republican governor said he will sign the bill. and kroger which owns fred meyer department stores announced it will stop selling guns and ammunition to anyone under the age of 21. and r.e.i. doesn t sell guns but the company said it is halting orders of camel back water
the president right when he says witch hunt? yeah, sure. you can t explain this any other way. a gog. it s a word you don t see in newspapers often, in fact, i don t think i ve seen it before. it was in their report today of how people in the white house reacted toll rudy giuliani s performance. quote, the white house council had no idea, neither did the white house chief of staff nor the white house press secretary nor the new white house lawyer, they watched agog as he freestyled on live television wednesday night about the president s legal troubles and unveiled an explosive new fact that trump reimbursed his long time personal attorney michael cohen for the $130,000 paid to stormy daniels. rudy giuliani went on fox & friends to try to smooth over the mountain of lies and inconsistent statements now that have been told by donald trump and michael cohen about the stormy daniels payment. michael cohen s first statement about the stormy daniels payment was on february 13th which he said he was not reimbursed for the payment either directly or indirectly. april 5th on air force one the president was asked did you know about the payment of $130,000 to stormy daniels, his answer was no. he was then asked why michael cohen made the statement. he said, you ll have to ask michael cohen. so the fox hosts asked rudy giuliani, why? why this morning? michael cohen why he now said why he said he was not reimbursed if he really was reimbursed? i remember when michael cohen was interviewed about it, and it seemed like he was saying that he was never reintercontinental ballistic missile reimbursed that $130,000, now it sounds like the story is changing. he was definitely reimbursed. no doubt about it. why did he say he wasn t? maybe maybe first of all, if we had to defend this, it s not being a campaign contribution, i think we can do that. this was for personal reasons. the president had been hurt personally, not politically. personally so much. and the first lady by some of the false allegations. so rudy giuliani has no answer about why the reimbursement story has changed. and we should watch for that particular technique in answering a question when he begins with maybe, maybe, and then just changes the subject. his technique when he has no answer is to just verbally warned off in some new direction. and he has a enough story about when donald trump learned that he reimbursed michael cohen. he didn t know the details of this until we knew the details of it, which was a couple weeks ago, maybe not even a couple weeks, maybe ten days ago. okay, god it. two weeks ago. two weeks ago was ten days after the raid of michael cohen s apartment, hotel and office. so now we re being asked to believe that donald trump didn t know, until after the raid, that donald trump had already reimbursed michael cohen with a series of reimbursement checks that began a year before. rudy giuliani believes, like most trump associates and lawyers, that donald trump is completely incapable of speaking to the special prosecutor without committing a crime right before the prosecutor s eyes. now they go to obstruction of justice, collusion among their the players. what they re really trying to do is trap him into perjury, and we re not suckers. no. we re not suckers. because we re not going to let the president commit a crime right in front of the special prosecutor. a crime that he can only commit if the president chooses to commit the crime of perjury. because, of course, there is no such thing as a perjury trap. a trap is something that you can t get out of. all you have to do to avoid a perjury trap is tell the truth. something donald trump s lawyers believe he absolutely cannot do. joining us now barbara mcquade, matt miller, msnbc contributor, and michael izzakoff. barbara, there s so many points to go over here, and i m happy to have you take your pick. but working backwards from this idea of perjury trap, which is now this is now rudy giuliani s big talking point, is that the special prosecutor is going to trap him, going to somehow force the president of the united states to commit perjury, as if donald trump has absolutely no control over his own ability to tell the truth. it s really nonsense, the phrase perjury trap is used by prosecutors to mean calling someone before the grand jury when you have no legitimate purpose for doing so. the only reason you called them is not that you have any legitimate questions but solely to catch them in a lie. it s prohibited under department of justice policy. there s lots of questions that bob mueller wants to ask president trump. and it s president trump s decision whether he wants to tell the truth or not. so any perjury would be in the control of the president. there may be strategic reasons not to choose to sit down for an interview but this is no perjury trap. michael, it seems rudy giuliani has not even glanced at campaign finance law. he seems to think that if donald trump has reimbursed michael cohen, then there s no campaign finance law violation, of course, there s plenty of violations here, none of this was reported in the campaign finance reports as it must be. but giuliani seems to think his whole mission is to save donald trump from a campaign finance law violation. the days ago, which is apparently what giuliani said on fox & friends this morning, is belied by the fact that he was making the payments, you know, starting in early 2017. and it s you know, the idea the president, as president, would be writing checks to michael cohen without even asking why he was writing them, you know, is just, you know, defies reason. but, you know, on the campaign finance issue, i don t think it s as clear cut as some people would like to be. remember, the justice department tried to indicted john edwards for campaign finance violations about money paid to the woman he had impregnanted, and it lost. and i think it s going to hinge on what sort of either a witness or e-mails or other communications that clearly link the payment to what s going on in the campaign. yes, the timing is highly suspicious and that s the reason we have the investigation going on, but i don t think the timing enough is the timing in and of itself is enough to make a criminal case on this matter. let s listen to what rudy giuliani said he believes attorney general jeff sessions should do now. the basis of the case is dead. sessions should step in and close it and say enough s enough. matt miller, your reaction to that. i think he was talking about the campaign finance case against michael cohen and potentially against donald trump. a couple things about that. first of all it s not at all clear that case is dead. obviously the prosecutors for the southern district of new york are pursuing it aggressively. but i think it would be a mistake to assume they are only investigating campaign finance. there s no way those prosecutors and fbi agents would have raided the president s personal attorney s office if they weren t looking for something more than campaign finance. is it michael cohen s personal dealings and nothing to do with donald trump or is it something to do with dealings with donald trump back before he was president of the united states. so to now ask the attorney general who by the way, if it was campaign finance issues should be recused because he was a member of the campaign, to ask him to step in and kill a lawful investigation is rudy giuliani asking jeff sessions to obstruct justice only he s not doing it in secret, he s doing it in the open just like the president does when he tweets what he wants the attorney general to do and what he wants the attorney general and deputy attorney general to stop doing. it s this open corruption we see from the president and members of his team out in the public for everyone to see. let s listen to what rudy giuliani said today about questions that were written by the trump team, leaked by the trump team as a summary of what the special prosecutor wants to ask the president. look at the questions, they don t think collusion is dead if you look at the 52 questions we saw. ridiculous questions, what did you think? what did you feel? what were you dreaming? i thought freud wrote them. i guess he didn t read them. i didn t see any questions about the dreams. he s trying to ridicule them about being too outside the scope of the investigation. it s been reported that robert mueller s team conveyed the topics they wanted to talk about and it was jay sekulow who actually wrote out the questions themselves. to the extent he s criticizing the phrasing of the question that could be jay sekulow and not robert mueller but even if it is robert mueller asking what the president knew, what he was thinking, is fair game and questions that need to be asked right now because the essential element of obstruction of justice is corrupt purpose, intent, and the only way to ascertain that is to find out from president trump himself. this is president trump s opportunity to tell his side of the story. if he doesn t want to avail himself of that, the time may come when robert mueller moves on without listening to him. but it s important that president trump explain his motivations behind these decisions because that s the essence of obstruction of justice. giuliani is proving to be the most undisciplined public thinker and speaker in the trump legal team, especially when he said something about the timing of the stormy daniels payment this morning when he was trying to make the case that this payment had absolutely nothing to do with the presidential campaign, and then giuliani brought up the timing of it. let s listen to this. imagine if that came out on october 15, 2016, in the middle of the last debate with hillary clinton. michael, there it is. there s the rationale for how this contribution that could be the evidence that prosecutors would want to use. look, i actually think the more serious legal issues about the disclosure about the president reimbursed cohen gets to the fact he didn t disclose it on his financial disclosure form. this was in effect a loan he had gotten from michael cohen. cohen puts up $130,000 in the first place, and then trump reimburses him. so i actually think that may be a more serious matter than the campaign finance. but look, it all is going to depend on what the communications are between michael cohen and the lawyer for stormy daniels, and stormy daniels herself. was it discussed in the context of the campaign. michael gets the last word. when we come back, rudy giuliani did something today that donald trump has not dared to do. rudy giuliani insulted michael avenatti. we will show you what rudy giuliani had to say. we ll show you his attacks on michael avenatti. and michael avenatti is here to respond.t ve got an idea sir. get domo. it ll connect us to everything that s going on in the company. get it for jean who s always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that s that s your job i guess. let your inner light loose with one a day women s. a complete multivitamin specially formulated with key nutrients plus vitamin d for bone health support. your one a day is showing. ambulance trying to save this presidency that is about to be announced doa. i take it, look, we re doing a hell of a job and the best evidence is i have rudy giuliani and other people calling us names, calling me an ambulance chaser. the reason is they can t deal with the facts and the evidence and the reality of the situation that they have been caught lying to the american people, the president has been caught on air force one lying to the american people. michael cohen is about to be indicted and he s been caught lying to the american people. so you know what, i hope they keep calling me an ambulance chaser because it proves my point we re doing a hell of a job. i want to go to something michael isikoff just said at the end of the segment. he said what if there was communication with stormy daniels, with stormy daniels counsel about getting this $130,000 settlement done when it was done because of the timing of the campaign. are you aware of any communication with your client or your client s counsel, in october of 2016, as they were closing this settlement agreement that involved the timing of the campaign? you know, our case has been pending almost two months and i made a lot of tv appearances and i ve gone on a lot of shows and i ve been interviewed a lot of times and a lot of people have commented on that, i ve never been asked this question, and it s perhaps one of the most important questions and i m going to answer it right now. there were extensive communications between michael cohen and keith davidson in october of 2016 relating to the timing of this payment and the need for the payment to be made prior to the election. extensive communications relating to the need for the payment to be made when it was made and as it related to potential influence on the election. period.mlm and keith davidson was then stormy daniels lawyer? correct everyone involved in this transaction around the time knew the importance of the payment as it related to the election. so any claim that the payment had nothing to do with the election is completely bogus. there s no question it had everything to do with the election. based on what you know, do you expect that in the fbi raid one of the things they re going to find in e-mails or other communication systems that they have seized, do you think they will actually find some of the communication, at least, between michael cohen and stormy daniels lawyer at the time saying this timing is about the campaign? i believe that they will find that. and i hope and pray that the reports of michael cohen recording conversations with other parties unbeknownst to them are true. because if he recorded conversations with keith davidson in the month of october of 2016 relating to this, there will be no question as to whether this was done in an attempt to influence the 2016 presidential election, lawrence. so if keith davidson within the other lawyer in this case representing stormy daniels is called to testify about this, stormy daniels can release the attorney/client privilege that keith davidson would otherwise be held by and he can be allowed to answer questions about what exactly michael cohen said. that s correct. depending on the question and whether the privilege has been waived, et cetera. and asmsu] i said in the past w going to cooperate, we are cooperating with the u.s. attorney s office in the southern district of new york. i want to be clear, lawrence, there was never any question this had anything to do with the 2016 election, and any claim it was just a coincidence or the timing doesn t prove or amount to proof that this had something to do with the election is complete and utter nonsense. this completely wipes out what rudy giuliani was trying to say today even though when he was trying to say it, he himself got it wrong saying imagine what would happen if this came out in october of 2016, what you re telling us tonight is there was an awareness on michael cohen s part that the job he was trying to do was to make sure this story was hidden during the presidential campaign in order to benefit the presidential campaign? there s no question about that. look, rudy giuliani at one time was a really good lawyer, at one time was a really good mayor. he s no longer ready for prime time. he s been out of it since 1988, in terms of lawyering, anyway. this really is a breaking news event here with you telling us that you are aware i want to make sure we have this straight. you are aware of clear and convincing evidence that michael cohen was communicating with stormy daniels lawyer at the time about the urgency of getting this settlement and this payment done in october of 2016 because it needed to be done because of the presidential campaign? yes. that s it. michael cohen has added now a completely new dimension to this story. this is going to be fascinating to see how the trump legal team responds to this, because this makes everything that one could ask for, in terms of the elements necessary to define this as a campaign contribution. absolutely, lawrence. and if the president is watching, if you d like to go on fox & friends tomorrow morning, together with mr. giuliani, i would encourage you to do that, please spend a lot of time there because we certainly would appreciate it. it s going to be fascinating to see what their answer is to this. michael avenatti thank you very much for joining us tonight and thank you for the breaking news you just created here. i really appreciate it. we ll have more from this breaking news from michael avenatti when we come back. 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i think it s very significant. one of the things you have to prove is the payment was designed to influencetk the election, that s why it s a campaign violation, and not some other purpose. getting it done before the election is for that purpose. the statement is consistent with other things we know. the timing on its face has some suspicions there. but the comments from giuliani that you couldn t have this revealed on the eve of the debate, especially after the release of the access hollywood tape so that is evidence that would prove this was a payment made for a campaign as opposed to some other reason. i don t know that we ll see this, but at no point the prosecutors will have the information and use it to build a charge against michael cohen or perhaps even against president trump himself as harry said. let us remember we re not only talking about the evidence of the search warrant. i am her subsequent counsel. so in my role i have undertaken efforts to obtain all documents relating to mr. davidson s representation of my client. we haven t received everything yet but i received a lot of information, and i have had conversations with various individuals relating to that representation. when i make these statements it isn t me out there hanging it out, i m not pulling a giuliani, i m pulling a avenatti, and when you do that you have facts and evidence to back up what you state as opposed to some nonsense you peddle to the american people on fox. so when i m doing that you have evidence to back up your statements. you touched on this, but when a lawyer takes over a case from another lawyer, especially a civil matter, one of the routines is handing over the case file. it s routine for the former lawyer to say here s everything we have on it. so the likelihood of you having a lot or most of this already, the evidence you re talking about is actually very high. you wouldn t necessarily, as you say, be dependent on the fruits of that fbi raid. correct, 100%. harry, given there are the two tracks here that we can never forget about michael avenatti s own ability to exact discovery in a variety of directions about this and knowing that the fbi raid has also probably collected some evidence to the effect that michael avenatti is talking about here tonight, where does rudy giuliani go now? the next time he wants to say this timing was coincidental, the next time anybody on that team wants to say the timing had nothing to do with the campaign. yeah, i you know, really what he s trying to do, this sort of two-step dance because he s worried, also, about exposure in the stormy daniels case but what he has managed to do, as best i can tell, is increase the president s exposure on both sides because with this sort of added gloss that oh, but the president really didn t know he did know, but he didn t know. that is precarious for having the president having defrauded the stormy daniels and walks into avenatti s claims right there. you know, it looks like there s a scenario where he gets the worst of both worlds. i do want to add, this has not typically been something that s been vigorously prosecuted by the fec, i think michael isikoff mentioned the difficulty with the edwards case but when you tie this together, it begins to look so nefarious it s less the underlying campaign violations rather than the match nations to keep it from the american people that does seem to make the case seem righteous and prosecution worthy. how long have you been in possession of evidence indicating the motivation of this timing? a while. okay. a while. michael avenatti gets the last word in this segment. thank you very much for joining us. appreciate it. barbara mcquade thank you for joining us. when we come back, what does it feel like to go before robert mueller s team for questioning? someone just did it and says it s pretty scary. once there was an organism so small no one thought much of it at all. people said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn t that be cool? and that s why exxonmobil scientists think it s not small at all. energy lives here. and it s time to get outside. pack in even more adventure with audible. with the largest selection of audiobooks. audible lets you follow plot twists off the beaten track. or discover magic when you hit the open road. with the free audible app, your stories go wherever you do. and for just $14.95 a month you get a credit, good for any audiobook. if you don t like it exchange it any time. no questions asked. you can also roll your credits to the next month if you don t use them. so take audible with you this summer. on the road. on the trail. or to the beach. start a 30-day trial and your first audiobook is free. cancel anytime, and your books are yours to keep forever. no matter where you go this summer make it better with audible. text summer17 to 500500 to start listening today. so trump has surely been wondering about, worrying about, is what does it feel like to face the questions that president trump would get from robert mueller s team if the president sat down for an interview and they closed the door and the president sat there with his lawyers and with all those lawyers and investigators on the other side of the table, what would that be like? well michael caputo did that yesterday. he s a former you trump campaign official who submitted to an interview with the mueller team and everything that michael caputo said about being in that room with the mueller team must have sounded very, very scary to donald trump and his lawyers. i don t think they re convinced yet there s no russian collusion. the mueller team new more about what i did in 2016 than i knew myself. i think they know more about the trump campaign than anyone that worked there. they have every single e-mail, anything that s ever gone down. they re clearly focussed on trying to identify some russian collusion. i d say the mueller team is spear fishing. i think they believe they know where they re going, they re not asking a wide-range of questions that seem to be unrelated. they know exactly what they re looking for. anybody whose name is in the mouth of the mueller investigation is in peril, i think. these folks are really focussed on bringing somebody in. these folks are really focussed on bringing somebody in, wonder who that could be. when we come back, more about interviews with the mueller team. i m all about my bed. this mattress is dangerously comfortable. when i get in, i who governed thousands. commanded armies. yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story. now with 5 times more detail than other dna tests. order your kit at ancestrydna.com now i m gonna tell my momma that i m a traveller i m gonna follow the sun now i m gonna tell my momma that i m a traveller i m gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ with dell small businessout your technology advisors transitions™ you get the one-on-one partnership you need to grow your business. the dell vostro 15 laptop. contact a dell advisor today. delivcrisp leaves of lettuce,s. freshly-made dressing. clean food that looks this good, eaten at your desk. panera. food as it should be. now delivered. (burke) so we know how to cover almost anything.en almost everything even close claws. (driver) so, we took your shortcut, which was a bad idea. [cougar growling] (passenger) what are you doing? (driver) i can t believe that worked. i dropped the keys. (burke) and we covered it. talk to farmers, we know a thing or two because we ve seen a thing or two. we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum we have to go there and prepare him for this silly deposition about a case in which he supposedly colluded with the russians but there s no evidence of that? i mean everybody forgets the basis of the case is dead. if anybody thinks russia collusion is off the table, they haven t visited with the mueller team. back with us, matt miller, there we have caputo, who has just visited with the mueller team saying they are pressing on collusion. they have definitely still investigating collusion. they absolutely are despite the president s repeated insistence that ail thundershower liking at is obstruction, as if obstruction is not a serious crime in itself. i think one of the important thing people lose sight of in this case, when special counsel first started rolling out indictments and guilty pleas on october 30th, he started this kind of steady tempo of activity in court where every few weeks you d get a new indictment or oi new guilty plea, up until february 23rd, when rick gates pled guilty. since then we ve had really the longest period in this case of no new activity. almost 2 1/2 months of no new dpilty pleas, no new indictments from the special counsel. it s very clear that the next big thing that s coming is at least hacking of or is at least indictments of russians for hacking, and you have to think that the piece he s trying to put together is the american side of it, the conspiracy piece, the questions about roger stone, who still has not been in to talk to the special counsel, which leads you to believe he s a target status. donald trump jr. still not been in to talk to the special counsel. would lead you to the same conclusion. it is very much a live part of this investigation. if i was the president or anyone in a senior rank of that campaign, i would be very concerned about it. harry littman, michael caputo, haing been a witness, meeting with the special prosecutor yesterday, saying things like they know exactly what they re looking for and the mueller team knew more about what i did in 2016 than i knew myself. that sounds to me like the kind of investigative team that i ve heard other people experience in other investigations in different places in theeq countr when they go in there and a team of solid, professional federal prosecutors are ready for them. it always feels like they know more about me than i do. yes. but i would say this is, you know, even more. this is probably the finest prosecutorial teem ever aassembled. when those people come into the witness room, they confront agents and attorneys who have binders like this with maybe 150 documents behind them that they know completely cold, and they will refer to during the course of the questioning it is brutal. they have figured out everything in advance that they want to say, and of course they this is the &÷q&em for trump as well. they have a wealth of information from other witnesses including cooperating witnesses, and the person in the hot seat doesn t know what that is. this is really a professional operation that justifiably will terrify people who are on the other side of the chair. matt miller, the legal team for everyone involved trying to defend these team does not know what the special prosecutor has. michael avenatti just really highlighted that kind of thing tonight when it turns out michael avenatti has known for some time that there is extensive communication about the timing of thebte payment to stormy daniels at the time, saying that this is about the campaign. that s what michael cohen was telling stormy daniels lawyer then. and no one knew that michael cohen was telling stormy daniels lawyer that. you know, rudy giuliani probably did not know until tonight that michael cohen was telling stormy daniels lawyer that then. yeah, that s exactly right. for each one of these witnesses, if they re getting ready for these interviews and their attorneys are getting ready for them, they have access to their e-mails. th7 >[t access to their own documents and to their own recollections, but they don t know other documents that the special counsel has (r ed. they don t know what other witnesses have told the special counsel about meetings that they sat in. so they go in prepared to give their version of events, but when they re confronted with other pieces of evidence that they re not aware, it can be very unsettling. i think one of the things to remember, harrycoç talked about this being such a great prosecutorial team. i worked with a number of these people. i m sure harry did as well. they re really a doj all-star team. when you look!jpw at the caliber that team versus the caliber of the people on the other side, let s remember this was not the top tier of republican talent that was working on the trump campaign. these are cast offs and has beens and people who are on their good day are not at their best. facing that team is a tough, tough, challenge for them. thank you both for joining us. really appreciate it. tonight s last word is next. but i ve got an idea sir. get domo. it ll connect us to everything that s going on in the company. get it for jean who s always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that s that s your job i guess. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, little things can be a big deal. that s why there s otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it s a pill that treats psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable after just 4 months, . with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don t use if you re allergic to otezla. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, 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deliver truly personalized cancer care. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com here s something we haven t done before. tonight s last word goes to michael avenatti. we re going to show you the breaking news that he delivered in this hour as a guest on this program about the communication between donald trump s lawyer, michael cohen, and stormy daniels then lawyer keith davidson when they were arranging the payment to stormy daniels in 2016 of that $130,000. there were extensive communications between michael cohen and keith davidson in october of 2016 relating to the timing of this payment and the need for the payment to be made prior to the election. extensive communications relating to the need for the payment to be made when it was made and as it related to potential influence on the election, period. michael avenatti gets tonight s last word. there will be more analysis of
anyway, sour grapes is to be expected. why would you praise your opponent after he wiped the mat with you and that s the problem with these politics even when there s good news country it s been used for the party and there s a lot of good news on jobs, ices, economy all good but we could do better. the democrats remains our. schumer looks like he s the penguin from batman. [laughter] trying to pass a softball sized gallstone. [laughter] and pelosi looks like that gallstones is about to hit her in the mercedes. [laughter] the rest of the democrats all look like they shared the same hemorrhoids. what is the problem? first, that speech wasn t for them. it was for you. i thought it was too long but for you it s not long enough. it s 90 minutes of positivity about this great country after eight years of moaning about america his speech was a water cooler in the desert. for democrats your good news is there bad news but also their bad news is your good news. in the future, here s a handy measurement for success. i call it the pelosi scowl ohmmeter. the more she frowns the more you should smile. [laughter] it this leads me to the memo. week was fraught with anticipation as if the royal family giving birth to a panda. the nation wanted answers and their first cannot be quenched until they heard this command. believes the memo. [laughter] greg: good work they are dubbing. finally it was released and became the super bowl for nerds. if it s true, the dossier was put together by crystal still by the funding of fusion gps and the democrats. then they played up to media outlets and the justice department asked for surveillance weren t but according to the memo the application did disclose the role of the dnc or clinton campaign in funding the dossier. the memo also plays a former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe wouldn t have stopped weren t without this dossier. maybe it s me but this has clinton stink all over it. all roads lead back to the perv and the pantsuit. [laughter] sound like a good tv series. i wonder if trump thanks it is disgraceful. i think it s terrible if you want to know the truth. i think it s a disgrace was going on in this country. i think it s a disgrace. the memo was sent to congress and declassified in congress will do whatever they re going to do but i think it s a disgrace. greg: i think it s a disgrace. [laughter] but he is right. the dems want to nail trump so badly they were willing to use an unfettered hypo partisan dossier to do it. they use this dossier to get a warrant that s like me using monopoly money to buy a horse. we spent the last year here in occlusion between trump and russia and all along the real collusion was committed by the perpetrators of that narrative. the media, democrats and their government allies. this will mess is brought to you by the same people that is not cool, right, adorable puppies going on his life? good puppies. good job. can you do it? gay. come on puppies. puppy, puppy. greg: i told you there would be puppies. [cheering and applause] let us look at tonight s guest, he had no qualms defusing bombs is former us marine bomb technician staff sergeant joey joe. [cheering and applause] and another hero his jokes are drier than powdered milk. writer and comedian david angelo. [cheering and applause] and the real hero, if you can t handle her smirk then you re probably a jerk, national review reporter kat sims. [cheering and applause] finally, the jolly green giant sent and help mail former bodyguard, nasa psychotic tyrus. [cheering and applause] all right, joey, you got the state of the union and take your pick and run with it. it s the state of the union that was forever ago. i sent her to state of the union i ve batting 900 mine so i had one bad day. greg: one bad day, joey. i ve got a leg up on your two. greg: terrible. david, what about the memo? the memo was good but we all kind of wanted more out of the memo. i feel like it didn t give enough secrets. i feel like they should just open this mcafee of the tsa project they should just let you in the fault for an hour. here s the thing. the memo i already knew. let s show the. can we show that? this is from march 2017. greg: this is you. i can t read it. it s too far away. greg: [cheering and applause] the most trusted names in this. greg: you are like a psychic with really interesting glasses. speaking of interesting glasses, cat, what would you like to talk about. would you like to talk about the amazing the speech that trump gave or the groundbreaking earth shattering memo? oh my god. talk about the memo but i m really glad that i m a wizardly that i want to see all the things the fbi does not want me to see, one 100%. i think we need to take a look at how this is able to happen in the first place and look at reforming this entire area of government when we take the fourth amendment seriously so it s not so easy to surveilled american citizens. greg: i will agree with you. [cheering and applause] that s the thing that bothers me. anyone can create a questionable dossier about my life and i might not be questionable, might not be questionable, those two years anyway, tyrus, thoughts on the memo? thoughts on your dossier, yes. there is no unicorn, kids. [laughter] greg: it was a donkey just as a unicorn. [laughter] greg: so, you know what, here s my frustration this week. i thought the state of the union was very good. i thought it s always good to hear positive things about our country because we don t hear enough about it. [applause] i was looking for one thing and i thought maybe it would be in structure that was going to bring the sides together or start some dialogue because after the state of the union was over those of us who love trump still of trump and those of us hate him and blame him for everything in the entire world that s going wrong they still hate him. to tighten the memo was the same thing. if you don t like the russian investigation and if you have issues with the left, you will support the memo. if you love trump, that s what we needed but my issue that is page, that s the guy? every group has one and we have him. and that dude and then when he tweet and then no, this does mean and the only thing i don t want to hear more from pages crews. those of the two guys i don t want to hear from and i keep waiting for something that is going to start bringing us together and i feel like the division lines keep trying in the sand and there s no middle ground. my book i kept thinking i m working on a book that s like living in the great divide. it s belmonts, no, it s about walking to my neighborhood because i walk through liberal i ll get to that and if i walk by conservative i get cheered. it s crazy how divided we are. greg: that s why you walk on the conservative side. you know what could unite us all? besides alcohol, russians. they played on america s key attribute which is not a key attribute but a consequence the politics of binary system. they play both sides. they played the democrats and took money from the democrats replaced the republicans to create disruption. it works. i thank you just nailed it. our arrogance is that we had to be in on it and that s the ironic. we were in on it. greg: yeah, all right, we re so much more to talk about privately as well. all right, what s up with trumps border wall?an what i did there? [cheering and applause] out with the grain, in with the farm-raised chicken. healthful. flavorful. beneful. there s a serious virus out there that 1 in 30 boomers has, yet most don t even know it. a virus that s been almost forgotten. it s hepatitis c. hep c can hide in the body for years without symptoms. left untreated it can lead to liver damage, even liver cancer. the only way to know if you have hep c is to ask your healthcare provider for the simple blood test. if you have hep c, it can be cured. for us, it s time to get tested. it s the only way to know for sure. greg: that is teaching them a terrible us. critics have called trump small proposal everything from irresponsible to stupid but there is logic behind all the new wall will be used. based on topography and budget each quarter sector will extend an existing fence, replace an old fence or add a secondary wall allowing agents to apprehend immigrants in an enforcement zone. greg: it s a trick wall. if the secondary wall. but there s a fence on the border already yet liberals always forget that part they act like trumps the first person to come up with this amazing idea. basically, trumps wall is a new and improved version of something that is already there and yet it doesn t have bipartisan support. maybe trump does has to sell it better. are you ready for the most radical international border feature since niagara falls? you will love border wall 2000. it s the ultimate multipurpose wall everyone can enjoy. need a site for the x games? it converts to a half bite. wish you could see bob ross landscape on display? and the best part of border wall 2000 is it s been certified unbreakable by the kool-aid man. more like vote no, the 21st hundred visitors will ride on the first space escalator to the moon. greg: that is what we need. david, thoughts on the wall? oh boy. how long will it take and aren t we on the cusp of flying cars? not that i want to be like but it s 2018. that s the one concern i have. greg: it won t be a flying car but a drone that can carry a human that will pick you up annual flyover. [laughter] at least the little children is easier to drown, i ve heard, i have not tried that, kat. kat, thoughts? are you excited? an impenetrable wall to you would like that around you. i live that with around me emotionally. [laughter] i think that a better way to go about it to end the welfare incentive and end the drug war to keep the gangs from coming over here. that way we wouldn t need to spend tens of billions of dollars on a wall and i know that s not a popular opinion but it s not a joke but that s what i really think it sometimes that is how life goes. greg: will you cry? not right now, i ll wait until after the show. she is a crying corner in the back. greg: tyrus, i look at this deal and the democrats are ignoring the fact that they one on this. they re getting at one point to million or even more people that will be through the path of citizenship. he was called the amnesty don and he took a lot of shots for trying to make a deal but they don t want to deal with him. it doesn t matter if everyone got a past they would ve found something wrong with it. it wasn t a joke because i agree with everything one 100% that you said but the idea of being there to see someone oh my god. but the one was shorter so the hop over and you made it in like that s that s pretty funny. i hadn t seen that type of artwork since the classes in high school. merge this way or the red highway will. greg: i learned so much. joey, what you think? listen, i think trumps all the small and he was elected from this wall so we won t build a wall that we can reconcile that with his boating popular. the american people elected him and his will was his biggest talking point. with that said they re happy about having money in their pocket right now so ever is going to go a different direction now is the time and do it by the time democrats have potential to be almost incapable to work with so it will be something other than what he s promised now is the time to do it with a deal. as far as the whole issue in general, i grew up in a town 75% hispanic i see both sides of the issue from a personal standpoint. if you re going to do anything have the pics the immigration system but we have to have some security measure like had said. at the incentive that is not there. we have to stop people wanting to come here and the idea that it s a free ride when you get here. greg: i think hollywood is that. oh sure. greg: i do think no matter what trouble build this wall and even if you don t use it it s going to be somewhere in new jersey. it s like you know what it is? this is his obamacare. think about that. once obamacare came into being the other side wanted to dismantle it so once he puts this wall of you will have an entire party that will in their slogan will be tear down this wall and then it will be a very good slogan but the problem is it could be that the wall works and then they will not want to tear down the wall or to be two-tier hard to tear down. i think kat hit on a big thing. sometimes walls can be built and they re not physical. making it hard harder to get eligible for welfare and food stamps and it takes away from american citizens in need. i had a discussion with some people this weekend one of the ladies of the hardest thing is she a two young children and when she went to go get services that she needed they were very rude to the english-speaking ones and they were like it s not for you and you have to wait but when the people and immigrants came and they had all their stuff for them and they had a translator for them and all these other things for them. she was almost being steered out like we don t do that here. it s this double standard and if you come here illegal you shouldn t get any those to be reserved for our citizens. greg: no countries. we have to move on. [cheering and applause] everybody, everyone deserves a chance at coming up, california michael teacher thanks a military is the lowest of the low. i ve a feeling we will disagree with him. let s begin. yes or no? do you want the same tools and seamless experience across web and tablet? do you want $4.95 commissions for stocks, $0.50 options contracts? $1.50 futures contracts? what about a dedicated service team of trading specialists? did you say yes? good, then it s time for power e trade. the platform, price and service that gives you the edge you need. looks like we have a couple seconds left. let s do some card twirling twirling cards e trade. the original place to invest online. the centers for disease control is also reporting record hospitalizations. it is making things even more difficult, the vaccine is not very effective against the most common strain of the virus. the doctors and how the pressures and say it is still the best defense. flu shot is recommended for everyone six months and older. the man behind hawaii s pulse was alert is speaking out. he says he thought it was a real attack and not a drill. he says the on-duty call that came in on january 13 did not sound like a drill. i m alicia, now back to the greg gutfeld show. greg: should he recant his stupid rant? i speak of california high school teacher and city councilman greg. [crowd boos] i was just going to call him [bleep]. why not? it s easy. as you know, this jerk was caught on tape bashing the military and vanished into a tirade because two kids in the history class were wearing marine corps such as. roll it, gladys. [inaudible] greg: the sky. [crowd boos] and i already called him a [bleep]. i can t do it again. anyway, someone called for his inspiring but the best response may have been from retired four-star general and chief of staff, john kelly. what is your reaction to that knowing that he s teaching 17 euros this? i think the guy ought to go to hell. [cheering and applause] greg: he s been placed on administrative leave and they say he will be have disciplinary measures taken. i have an idea for his punishment. they can watch this on loop for eternity. [laughter] greg: i don t thank you deserve that. joey, i go to you first for no particular reason. [laughter] i m not sure about this guy. of all the things he said the worst thing was when he said they don t make [inaudible] decisions. we don t always make the best decisions at 2:00 o clock in florida in florida and now i have a nine -year-old son so you know what i m saying. really, this made me so mad. the premise that he s working on here is that the military is undereducated and he s talking to high school students and you only go there if you don t do well here. that premise is completely false. not only is he stupid but he s spreading lies. i d love to meet the marines that took his girlfriend because this is coming from somewhere personal. [cheering and applause] here s the deal. almost 90% of the military have a high school education as opposed to less than 60% of civilians. almost over 80% of officers have a four year degree or higher and then 30% of the philippines. that s fact and data. then, i don t know. oh you know, say it. this guy has been a mayor, city councilman and a teacher. i m qualified to do all of those things. he could not be a united states marine is the only thing he wanted in life and that s where i started my career. to go after the education or our motivation, people believe in something bigger themselves. they want to contribute to something that might take their life or their legs, oh my god, they re the lowest of the low but listen, dude, i challenge him to a physical contest with the one limb i still have intact. [cheering and applause] greg: tyrus mark i think he felt he could say this because he doesn t know anybody so cocooned in his own world. for small, i have to disagree. he didn t have a. you said. that s a whole different anger. another thing is on his moral high ground, does it get cold up there? i think this is the problem and i m going on a limb here but i m assuming he s a democrat in the liberal. [laughter] i m just guessing. for the people but he loves to [bleep] the people so he is literally the reason why they can t win in office. is this type of mindset. he thanks you re doing him a favor and he makes as a teacher makes anywhere from 30-and judging by the way history and responded to speech, probably on the lower end. he probably has to get a part-time job in the summertime to supplement his income. i graduated as a teacher and i said i m in a try something else. it s not to talk with the military and one of the reasons they go to the military is to further their education. his entire rant was his moral high ground and his horse because he didn t have the [bleep] to go pick up a gun independent country. [applause] greg: what about you, david? i think he should get his job back on one condition that he spends a year embedded somewhere. imagine he would get learning experience. they should have one battalion that just festers an and [inaudible conversations] this guy, look, i didn t during the military because i know i m too much of a loser. (. greg: i would not last. i d be home on the bus in the second day. what about you, kat? i love that he s saying people in the military are dumb when he s making these kind of comments in a room full of recording devices and i mean this guy would be drunk to stand up there and say your uncle louie is stupid. they re getting paid to be a teacher and i have seen a better thought out lesson plan by jack black in school of rock as a substitute teacher. greg: i have to wrap it up. the bigger lesson is schools fail to accept life experiencing with their hiring teachers. this guy obviously nobody knows nobody in the military and says he is no life experience because everyone here for someone in the military so his self involved [bleep] will kill education. a typical veteran would give more knowledge to kids that i know nothing, jerk like that. i would also include not just school but in networks as well. places like fox news and places like cnn need to hire people like joey because they have more knowledge. [cheering and applause] and avoid people like david angela. of next, conservatives are better looking than liberals. who are the science deniers now? [cheering and applause] [vacuuming sound] and when you switch to esurance, you can save time, worry, hassle and yup, money. in fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved hundreds. so you might want to think about pulling the ol switcheroo. that s auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call. my doctor recommended i switch to miralax.on, stimulant laxatives make your body go by forcefully stimulating the nerves in your colon. miralax is different. it works with the water in your body to hydrate and soften. unblocking your system naturally. miralax. cleaning floors with a mop and bucket is a hassle. swiffer wetjet makes cleaning easy. it s safe to use on all finished surfaces. trapping dirt and liquid inside the pad. plus, it prevents streaks better than a micro fiber strip mop. for a convenient clean, try swiffer wetjet. greg: are those who leave right a more pleasant site? a new study says that for rebecca republicans are here s a montage of incredible sexy republicans. . greg: that is delicious. here is the where researchers are full of poop. they concluded that because life can be easier for good-looking people they get more credit than they deserve and their blind to the struggles of others and that makes them lean away from liberal policies like more government aid. explain these egghead quotes not having faced challenges of other citizens more attractive individuals should be less supportive of remedying these challenges for the general public. we asked the world s most handsome man to comment. [laughter] greg: sexy. tyrus? you buy this? know and that s not the reason why good-looking people don t help because they deal with the haters. when they get successful why would they get back, screw them. haters are going to hate. this is the second week in a row we ve had these scientific things on who is good-looking and who can be a kid longer and who is doing this? we re not paying for this from our tax dollars are we? i hate it. it drives me nuts that you generalize people. if someone is good-looking, usually at the people who are very attractive get picked on the most because they always you ll see a beautiful girl and she ll talk about in high school how they pulled her hair and everyone is mean because she was pretty. greg: they are lying. i was bullied, no, everyone was bullied. they were probably the bullies. mean girls, didn t you see the movie? kat, due by this? i m not sure i m qualified to comment on this study because i don t think i know how to tell if someone is hot or not. i ll be out with my friends and i ll be like that guy is and they ll say yeah, kat, he s asking for change. he doesn t have a home. [laughter] and i m like i can change him. come over. greg: you will change them because he s defecating on the sidewalk. joey? in this day and age attractiveness is how hard you work for it. are you doing crossfit or what are you doing and it makes sense to me in the sense that if your personality is to wait on the government or got to bestow gifts upon you you may be liberal and ugly but if you work for it, we are conservatives and we get worked on. [cheering and applause] no offense and i didn t mean to figure you in that one getting work done. greg: david, you are slightly sweaty. thank you, greg, i appreciate it. [laughter] you know, i don t think liberals are necessarily uglier but it s the expressions. you ll never, are you serious? conservatives don t do that. you cannot be [laughter] it s like a liberal expression. greg: that the liberal expression. i ve seen it at starbucks so many times. greg: i do think part of this is true in the other part is false. it is true that good-looking people benefit from society more often than the plane because they re afforded more opportunities because human beings gravitate toward good-looking people. good-looking people don t have to try so hard. good looks is a commodity. this is why whenever you see public nudity of a really good looking person it s weird because you re thinking why are you giving that away and that s only usually new to scams are not attractive. no one is asking for it so i said this before there s no activist group the plane or ugly. there s no martin luther king for the plane, no gondi for the ugly but it is inequality. conservative people do get something. they do understand it but they see the suffering as a individual challenge not as something the government should be trying to fix or government it should not be totally governmental. all right. i ll take that. [applause] i love this next story. coming up, killer whales that can talk. finally something that makes them interesting. [cheering and applause] a-ha. and an award-winning mobile app. that is more. oh, there s more. mobile id cards, emergency roadside service. more technology. i can even add a new driver. .right from her phone! geico. expect great savings and a whole lot more. your heart doesn t only belong to you. bye grandpa. and if you have heart failure, entrusting your heart to entresto may help. entresto is a heart failure medicine that helps improve your heart s ability to pump blood to the body. in the largest heart failure study ever, entresto was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital compared to a leading heart failure medicine. don t take entresto if pregnant. it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don t take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren. if you ve had angioedema while taking an ace or arb medicine, don t take entresto. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. and help make more tomorrows possible. let s try another one. let s all listen very carefully. here s the researcher getting the whales to say one, 21, two. one, two. one, two. greg: i think the whale went to number two. this is a little more confident and it s a proper name and now listen carefully. here s the trainer and the whale saying amy. amy. amy. amy. greg: that was creepy. how is that amy? all in all i am not impressed that talking whale. especially since my will, lawrence, can recite shakespea shakespeare. greg, i ve played your game. give me a fish. [laughter] greg: stupid whale. kat, i think whales are depressing animal because you are a mammal but you don t have any limbs and you re also a fish but you need to be there so you re not in both worlds and it s kind of sad. it seems all right. greg: yeah, all right. i think that assaying these wheels can talk is a big stret stretch. they can say i and they can blow raspberries and they can say by. they swim up and go and then they swim away. i want a conversation like that i call up my ex-boyfriend. greg: david, are we giving whales more human credit than they deserve? they can t even open a jar of pickles. i bet one could. greg: with what? i don t, i m suspicious of these things. i don t like the trend of them learning language. we don t need more opinions in the world. you know what i mean? they will have a yelp account and it s like i came to the grill and i m so excited and disappointed. greg: i m giving the pacific ocean three stars. [laughter] yeah, and aren t [inaudible] better than that but. greg: parents. parents. they re too repetitious. and they re always staring at you when you do stuff and when you kill people. [laughter] greg: carrots are a great witness to crimes, joey. joey, if they were really smart why did they invent anything? they have these big brains but there s no will bike, you know, there s a whale industrial revolution. maybe it s a dolphin but they called a whale that is a giant sonar on its head and they have one in atlanta at the aquarium that s impressive. this whole story ticks me off. i have a friend she and i can t tell what teach my veggie what part of the grass you should be upon and now a whale can talk and my dog can t figure out where to put. it gets me that i don t how to teach my dog what to do. greg: maybe you should get a whale. [laughter] all right, tyrus, i have a feeling you love the story. after hearing you, i hate you for being a part of the story. you don t know nothing about whales. once again, this goes to the arrogance of science. killer whales speak three languages. they have their own language. they also have the ability to feel each other s feelings. they are so far ahead of us in terms of medication the fact that you would try to take something that basically does not have our windpipe cannot speak the way and can mimic our sound shows how smart they are and how stupid we are. they don t make bikes, greg, because they don t have to. they map the ocean with their brain. their only problem is they have meddling people in smart asses like you who make fun of their greatness. this was a great story and you should be ashamed of yourself. [applause] blue planet to just came out. i love that series and i m enjoying it. they have this great scene where the dolphins were running and there s this giant false killer whale and greg you don t know what this is so don t laugh but were chasing them in the dolphins turn around and they talk it out. they literally stopped getting more and talked it out and fished together. greg: imparting human behavior on the slippery creatures is they talk to each other. they have babies and stuff. greg: they are in the ocean for a reason. they didn t evolve. yeah, they evolve there. greg: no, they didn t. [laughter] you just like them because you are big and they are big. that s it. that s it. and you like unicorns because their tall and slender. [laughter] greg: don t go anywhere. don t laugh at that. all right. more after this, i believe. [cheering and applause] th a sor. but he s got work to do. so he took aleve this morning. if he d taken tylenol, he d be stopping for more pills right now. only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. tylenol can t do that. aleve. all day strong. all day long. and for pain relief and a good night s rest, try aleve pm for a better am. of dry eye.of us suffer from the gritty and frustrating symptoms we need theratears®. theratears® is more than just eye drops. it s eye therapy. dry eye symptoms are caused by a salt imbalance. theratears® unique electrolyte formula, quickly restores the natural balance. so your eyes will thank you. more than eye drops, dry eye therapy. theratears®. greg: last word for everyone. you can talk about the super bowl if you have predictions or plug something for joey, go. i work for a place called campus of the ground, celebrity background started and we bring in kids in the autism spectrum and put them with kids who aren t in the autism spectrum and allow them to go to camp together and learn how amazing each one is. these kids have challenges can contribute to society and be amazing people. go home and hear about this and talk to your kids and tell them about how amazing this country is in the people who live in it acceptable for the they are and expect the most out of them. [cheering and applause] greg: all right. david, what uplifting thing can you match? i have nothing that whispered president trump, if you re watching, i d love to ride on air force one. i ll say hi to my friends, dan and margo. greg: pulled on her tyrus. i m excited because the go, i m looking for brady and my squad to repeat. [applause] and i m calling 34-13, patriots in a walkway. greg: last word, kat. i don t care about the fall which is why i actually love days of important games because