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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:39:00

documents that she has leaked internal documents showing what she says is that facebook's products harm children, stoke division and weaken our democracy and that is what we have been seeing play out in this senate hearing. let's get into it. cnn's senior legal analyst and katie is with us. donie, i think one, what is most compelling about the testimony from frances haugen is not only what she's saying, but she also talks like a normal person. you don't need a masters degree in facebook to understand what she's saying and how it impacts all of our lives. >> yeah. frances haugen is facebook's worst nightmare. she is articulate, she is compelling and she's speaking like a human being. you know, she's breaking down these difficult technical issues

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:40:00

in a way that we can all understand. oftentimes when tech executives come here to capitol hill, they sound like robots. facebook has been pushing back in realtime. their spokesman people are tweeting they didn't work on a certain team. she has ten of thousands of documents and she's pointing to something that so many people around the world know to be true. they know that they have kids that are addicted to these apps. they know that they have kids and family members and loved ones, even themselves, who can be pulled down rabbit holes, whether about eating disorders or conspiracy theories. kate. >> one thing we heard at the end from ed markey is that congress is going to act. we heard amy klobuchar say to frances haugen, you are the catalyst. what can congress do?

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:44:00

i mean, you know, facebook has been through many scandals before about our data, personal data, russian trolls, all of that. there's always been a very political element to all of that, whereve've seen a lot of political grand standing, but this is about children. the most vulnerable people in our society and you can see senators in the room indicating to one another on both sides that they need to come together on this. look, facebook is going to say, and there's a point that you know, this bullying, cyber bullying is happening on other apps, too, of course. facebook will say it's not just our problem, but the reality is it's happening on instagram. it is their problem. so i mean, i just think it's so compelling to hear as she walks through these issues and i think for just regular people who use these apps, again, this is unfortunately too relatable a story for many of us. for many people who have loved

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:37:00

populations online, like showing unemployment and housing ads to white people, but not to black people. in our country. should congress pass that bill? >> those issues are a bias. during my time at pinterest, like i mentioned before, it's difficult to understand how these algorithms react. saying that reels doesn't give african-americans the same distribution at white people and until we have transparency and our ability to confirm ourselves that facebook's marketing messages are true, we will not have a system that is compatible with democracy. >> i thank senator lee. i agree with you and your line of questioning. i wrote facebook asking them to explain that discrepancy because facebook, i think, is lying

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:14:00

distributed on facebook. that's a huge, huge negative impact. facebook also knows that they have admitted in public engagement based ranking is dangerous without integrity systems but then not rolled out those systems to most languages in the world. that's what's causing things like ethnic violence in ethiopia. >> thank you. what is the magnitude of facebook's revenues or profits that come from the sale of user data? >> i'm sorry. i've never worked on that. ooichl i'm not aware. >> what regulations or legal actions by congress or by administrative action do you think would have the most consequence or be feared most by facebook or instagram or co company. >> reforming section 330 to exempt algorithms. modifying around content, it's very complicated because user

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:03:00

to connect friends and family that are largely positive. do you believe that facebook's algorithms make its platform a better play for most users and should consumers have the option to use facebook and instagram without being manipulated by algorithms designed to keep them on their platform? >> i've spent most of my career working on engagement based rankings. i'm basically damning ten years of my work. they say we can do it safely because we have ai. the artificial intelligence will find the bad content that we know our content is promoting. they've written blog posts, but the ai will save us. facebook's research says they can't adequately identify dangerous content and as a result, those dangerous algorithms they admit are picking up the extreme sentiments, the division.

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:04:00

they can't protect us from the harms they know exist in their own system. so i don't think it's just a question of should people have the option of choosing to not be manipulated by their algorithms. i think if we had appropriate oversight or to make facebook responsible for the konconseques of their intentional decisions, i think they would get rid of it because it is causing teenagers to be more exposed to more anorexia content and in ethiopia, it's literally fanning ethnic violence. it encourage reform of these platforms. not picking and choosing individual ideas, but instead making the platforms themselves safer. less twitchy. less reactive. less viral. because that's how we scale bly solve these problems. >> miss chair, i would simply say let's get to work. we got some things we can do here.

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:02:00

ranking are that facebook knows that content that gets an extreme reaction from you is more likely to get a click, a comment or reshare and it's interesting because those clicks and comments and reshares aren't even necessarily for your benefit. it's because they know that other people will produce more content if they get the likes and comments and reshares. they prioritize content in your feed so that you will give little hits of dopamine to your friends so they'll create more content and they have run experiments on people where they have confirmed this. >> you and part of your information you provided "the wall street journal," it's been found facebook altered its algorithm in attempt to boost these meaningful social interactions but rather than strengthening bonds, it awarded more sensationalism. i think they'd say they use it

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:21:00

what they're getting? we know about this because of the newspaper issues. we're trying to say that journalism that has to meet a public interest standard is out there proving every day or they can be sued. these guys are a social media platform that doesn't have to live with that. and the consequences, they're telling their advertisers, we see it. people are coming back to the local journalism because they're like, we want to be with a trusted brand. we don't want to be in your website. i think your finding for the fcc is an interesting one, but we have to look at the other issues and one is did they defraud advertis advertisers and tell them this was the content they were going to be advertising, when in reality it was based on a different model. >> we have different examples of question and answers for the sales staff where advertisers say after the riots last summer, should we come back to facebook or after the insurrection, like should we come back to facebook. and facebook said in their

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At This Hour With Kate Bolduan-20211005-15:18:00

a hard intervention is like taking a user off facebook. soft interventions are about making slightly different choices to make the platform less viral. less twitchy. mark was presented with these options and chose to not remove downstream msi in april of 2020 even though, even just isolated at-risk countries. countries at risk of violence. if it had any impact on the overall msi metric. >> which in translation means less money. >> yeah. he said -- >> was there another reason given why they would do it other than they thought it would really affect their numbers? >> i don't know for certain, like jeff horowitz, the reporter for the "wall street journal" struggled with this. we read these minutes. like, how is this possible? we've just read 100 pages on how msi causes graphic content.

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