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All In With Chris Hayes

fani willis or whether this grand jury here believe that these state laws or broken here. we know that the anticipation those witnesses, george chidi as well as jeff duncan, they were supposed to go before the grand jury tomorrow. but abruptly here this afternoon, fani willis's office ask them to come in and testify. both men have done so now. and now, apparently, their final witnesses intended to go before the grand jury, apparently they're not going to be brought in to testify. in fact, instead, she went straight to vote here, as a thunderstorm began here outside downtown atlanta. >> yeah, vaughn, you told us several things including every of the case, if charged, which is the vote we are waiting on. that could really stretch from early november out until 2021. that is certainly a wider calendar than the jack smith charge, but it may speak to what americans have learned on this process, that we actually take seriously the different laws and different places, and what happened in georgia, and

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All In With Chris Hayes

i'm curious what you think, again, just what the underlying facts might justify as this grand jury, we are told, does vote now for the first time? >> i think rico is perfectly appropriate for this case. you know, people tend to think of it as being used only in mafia cases. and that's how it originated. it's been years note of different kinds of cases, including fani willis. in my own district, we used it for street gangs, and we used it for corrupt public officials. and as roberts said, the beauty of it is it creates an umbrella. and you could bring all of these different predicate acts under that umbrella, so that the jury gets to hear the full scope of the criminal scheme, which maybe fast, and we have some very different schemes with different people doing different tasks. but it's all coming together for that same purpose. it would seem to me that this is really a perfect case for rico. the advantage of rico in addition to it being a fulsome picture of the trial is that unlike the federal rico statute,

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All In With Chris Hayes

and the way they're going to be would on the indictment is as follows. it will stay, say the state of georgia versus the following defendants, maybe it's donald trump followed by several others. on the right side of the front page of the indictment, it will also show the charges that are being brought, that have been approved by the grand jury. and underneath each of those defendants names, you will see an identification of which number count applies to that particular defendant slash codefendant. but very, i think, key for us to think about at this time, considering the threats menacing that you have been seeing from the former president in this case, it's the fact that the jurors names will be revealed, ari, on that indictment. their names would be printed on a certain page of that indictment. those that were not present to vote, their names would be scratched out. but you can still see their names as they sat in service. so i think it's really important for people to realize, unlike other cases, or you have total secrecy when it comes to the grand jury numbers, there is a level of transparency in the state of georgia, including cameras inside the courtroom,

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All In With Chris Hayes

they just have to put sufficient evidence for what you are telling us. i'd love for you to reflect on that, as i remind our viewers here joining us from the east coast, we are not following at least the beginning initiation of grand jury voting and that trump election case in georgia. >> yeah, so, ari, you raised some very important points. so, number one, you do not have to have a unanimous, quote, verdict reached by grand jurors. as i said, in the state of georgia, you need to have at least 12 of the 23 grand jurors that have sat through the presentment of the evidence to be able to put a charge through. number two, another critical point, the burden of proof in a criminal case when you go to a trial is beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. but the burden on the prosecution in this instance instanin the presentment of evidence and the grand jury, is just probable cause. as we know, probable cause is a much lower standard. and so, to your point, not only could not all of the charges be agreed upon, to the reckless number of 12, ari, but you're

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All In With Chris Hayes

will be charged, whether it's tonight or tomorrow, or the next day, that he is certainly one of the people. the reason i am very focused on who else is because it's something that we have covered over and over again, which is state charges are not subject to a federal part pardon. meaning if donald trump or any other republican ally becomes president, ari, that it's not possible to get rid of those charges. so if you are a rudy giuliani or a mark meadows or a sydney powell, and you are now indicted in state court, you can be sitting there thinking, oh, i'm going to get a federal pardon. that does not apply in this case. so the pressure on them to cooperate, you know, in the face and the teeth of these charges, depending on if they are charged, how strong they appear, it's going to be immense because that's going to be more like the normal process by which prosecutors obtain cooperating witnesses.

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All In With Chris Hayes

other statutes that could be relevant tonight? >> well, so, in particular, i believe there was a forgery or a conspiracy or an attempt to commit forgery. if you are looking at the alleged fake electors, they started by something that was in fact not to, or at least what the d.a. is going to allege, which is donald trump was actually elected president, right? they were duly elected electors. and they will send that after the u.s. senate and other places. you know, that is one offense, you know, that i would use if i were the prosecutor for this case, as what we call an act which we look at rico. >> and i will send this to barbara. when we talk about a predicate act, or the way that rico does work in georgia, and long before we saw this document today, there have been many legal experts, lawyers, and others who talked about whether the state version of rico, the racketeering influence, is that organization to act could be in play here.

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All In With Chris Hayes

you develop a really strong case. and what donald trump has wielded so far, both when i was in the special counsel mueller investigation, and even now, is this idea of, don't worry, i have your back. i can pardon anyone like mark roger stone, michael flynn. but here for state charges, he does not have that ability. it will be interested to see who else if, anyone is charged, and what -- >> and you alluded to the idea that that was a fortification your team could not have under mueller? >> when we couldn't charge the president under doj policy. but we had to deal with the dangling of pardons because we were not dealing with federal cases. and not only did we have the dangling of pardons, we have the actual bestowing of pardons. and almost every single person in our investigation who didn't cooperate. there were those people who cooperated, but did not get pardons. and there is people who, you know, essentially were tough,

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All In With Chris Hayes

katie fang is standing by. so, our panel is going to stay, we've got a lot going on. katie, you have been at the courthouse there in fulton county. you have plenty of legal experience, including as a prosecutor, what can you tell us just about what you are learning and seeing tonight? >> so, obviously, as you have mentioned, ari, there was the anticipation that this was gonna take two days. the fact that we have heard from one particular witness by the name of george chidi, who was supposed to testify tomorrow. but he indicated on social media that he has been told that he doesn't need to testify today, there should be some addition about the presentment of that case by d.a. fani willis. so, just for our viewers to understand, there are 23 members of the grand jury. the law requires that 16 of those 23 must be present for the entirety of the presentation of the prosecution's case. but that only takes 12 of those 23 grand jurors to be able to vote a charge through. i also want to let people know that once this indictment is returned, a true bill, as we call, it is return, that indictment will be unsealed.

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All In With Chris Hayes

of the conspiracy. and those -- sometimes people say, are they gonna get away with all of it, but why does it work like this. it may be that -- and i'm gonna bring in the judge. that these are at least potential alleged activities or crimes that aren't in the federal purview. you can make the case. once you have a conspiracy case, there's a lot you can do. but maybe if they were directed at only state officials in a very kind of 1 to 1, that yes it reaches to a different place. clearly, there was more. and this is the illegal turn -- there was more shady stuff in georgia -- that is something that rico -- [laughter] and then some states, that's why because they have friend that -- wait before i go to the judge, your thoughts on this, andrew? >> it's possible for the federal government to use the proof incurred from the state but not charge it separately, not charge it with many pieces

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All In With Chris Hayes

georgia law, georgia law requires that a moment an indictment is handed up, it has to be unsealed. there's no lack period. there's no waiting period. that unsealing process, essentially it looks like taking the indictment over to the presiding judge, in this case it is judge robert mcburney who's overseeing much of this entire process from the beginning until now. taking it to him as he is still on the bench right now, to look at the indictments. he will hand the mac. that constitutes unsealing. and then, we will get some sort of no vacation, whether it's from the d.a.'s office, whether it's from the clerks office, that will be when that information becomes public. and we will see the indictment and see what was decided on, symone? >> lastly, blayne, because i know you need to get back and get this information for us. we are all waiting. are we going to hear from d.a. fani willis tonight? do you have any intel on that? >> reporter: we expect to. we understand that she is planning on holding some sort of conference, speaking in some form, once all of this is wrapped up. so we've been reading the tea

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