discounts— the summer of 2020, restaurant discounts offered, some people suggesting that that has led to an increase _ suggesting that that has led to an increase in infections. rishi sunak was the _ increase in infections. rishi sunak was the key— increase in infections. rishi sunak was the key architect of that. there will be _ was the key architect of that. there will be questions to mark sedwill ahout— will be questions to mark sedwill about that. there has also been some suggestion— about that. there has also been some suggestion that people around government were referring to the treasury — government were referring to the treasury led by rishi sunak as the denth— treasury led by rishi sunak as the death squad, the pro—death squad because _ death squad, the pro—death squad because they were pushing very hard to protect _ because they were pushing very hard to protect the economy, perhaps at the expense of health. perhaps those around _ the expense of health. perhaps those around rishi sunak would argue that was his— around rishi sunak would argue that was hisiob, — around rishi sunak would argue that was hisjob, as chancellor you are supposed — was hisjob, as chancellor you are supposed to try and protect the interests — supposed to try and protect the interests of the economy. lots of interesting things to watch out for. going _ interesting things to watch out for. going back— interesting things to watch out for. going back to some of those text exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read _ exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read out _ exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read out some of this, simon case, who was— i read out some of this, simon case, who was the — i read out some of this, simon case, who was the permanent secretary in downing _ who was the permanent secretary in downing street at the time, now cabinet — downing street at the time, now cabinet secretary, so in thatjob mark— cabinet secretary, so in thatjob mark sedwill held. he cabinet secretary, so in that “ob mark sedwill held. , . . mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes- he was — mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically _ mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying _ mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying to - mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying to mark | yes. he was basically saying to mark sedwiii. _ yes. he was basically saying to mark sedwill, look, "i've never seen a tlunch— sedwill, look, "i've never seen a bunch of— sedwill, look, "i've never seen a bunch of people less well—equipped to run— bunch of people less well—equipped to run a _ bunch of people less well—equipped to run a country. mark sedwill saying — to run a country. mark sedwill saying it — to run a country. mark sedwill saying it is _ to run a country. mark sedwill saying it is hard to ask people to n1arch— saying it is hard to ask people to march to — saying it is hard to ask people to march to the sound of gunfire if they— march to the sound of gunfire if they are — march to the sound of gunfire if they are shot in the mac. once again. — they are shot in the mac. once again, speaking to this pretty terrible — again, speaking to this pretty terrible culture downing street, pressurised environment, dealing with a _ pressurised environment, dealing with a difficult set of circumstances. but what baroness hatiett _ circumstances. but what baroness hallett said she was looking out for was how _ hallett said she was looking out for was how that culture led to the decisions — was how that culture led to the decisions that have been made and perhaps— decisions that have been made and perhaps how it led to something is being _ perhaps how it led to something is being overlooked as a result. during this inuui being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com _ being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important _ being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important to - being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important to keep l this inquiry com important to keep that note of hindsight, and when some of the civil servants were talking about chickenpox, coronavirus being akin to chickenpox, take yourself back to february, and we had a lot of that in the inquiry yesterday. at the time there was potentially what has been described as optimism bias, but actually in essence there was a sense of let's not panic, to make sure that we know this is really serious. it's very easy to look back on some of these messages and think that they are terribly significant in view of what happened after that. and of course, that is the challenge that rishi sunak and his team now will have to still face.— will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the future, - will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the future, he i wants to look to the future, he doesn't — wants to look to the future, he doesn't want to have to keep going back over— doesn't want to have to keep going back over these things that happened in the _ back over these things that happened in the past _ back over these things that happened in the past. he was speaking in the commons — in the past. he was speaking in the commons yesterday after the king's speech— commons yesterday after the king's speech delivered by king charles, he talked _ speech delivered by king charles, he talked a _ speech delivered by king charles, he talked a lot about change. but he cannot _ talked a lot about change. but he cannot really get away from the baggage the conservatives have had over the _ baggage the conservatives have had over the years in office. we baggage the conservatives have had over the years in office.— over the years in office. we can now listen to the — over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry _ over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry getting - over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry getting under i listen to the inquiry getting under way. listen to the inquiry getting under wa . [w ., listen to the inquiry getting under wa. 'f~ .,~ , listen to the inquiry getting under 'f~ .,~ , ':: way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and ou way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have _ way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided _ way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided the - way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided the usual - and you have provided the usual declaration. i think you provided a witness statement for module one as well for which we must thank you. correct. i well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., ,~' well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., , ., well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., y., , correct. i want to ask you first about the _ correct. i want to ask you first about the system _ correct. i want to ask you first about the system by - correct. i want to ask you first about the system by which - correct. i want to ask you first| about the system by which you correct. i want to ask you first - about the system by which you were provided with material to enable you to provide the witness statement. i think you were provided with a good many documents buying your legal advisers and by the persons responsible for assisting the inquiry with the provision of evidence. you haven't had access to or sought to replicate all the material which you would have seen during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid? ihla during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid?— during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid? no i've had access to a — career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range _ career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of— career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of material. - career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of material. i - access to a range of material. i think there was something like 2 million documents that referred to the cabinet secretary during the covid period. so obviously we had to try and identify the crucial ones, cabinet minutes, e—mails and so on, andi cabinet minutes, e—mails and so on, and i think as you heard, mr keith and i think as you heard, mr keith and other evidence sessions, the record—keeping and access to records has been troublesome. you record-keeping and access to records has been troublesome.— record-keeping and access to records has been troublesome. you no longer have our has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile _ has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone _ has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone from - has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone from the - has been troublesome. you no longer| have your mobile phone from the time when you were cabinet secretary and dealing with the coronavirus crisis. is it correct that the messages that would have been on your phone at that time were not backed up, they would have been deleted? was that part of a normal policy?— part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, _ part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, really, . part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, really, as| correct. essentially, really, as national security adviser i would regularly clean my phone, i would usually come a fair trip in which i'd been using it where they might have been an espionage threat it would generally be cleaned and rebooted, for example. and so i didn't have access to any whatsapps or other messages from my end essentially after i left office. but ou have essentially after i left office. but you have been — essentially after i left office. but you have been provided with some whatsapp material relating to conversations to which you were party because the record of those conversations has been retained by the other person's team you are speaking to. the other person's team you are speaking to-_ the other person's team you are speaking to.- you - the other person's team you are speaking to.- you didn't| the other person's team you are - speaking to.- you didn't keep speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a rivate speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time but - speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time but as - a private diary at the time but as cabinet secretary you did of course keep a notebook which recorded notes of formal meetings, and that of course would have been retained by the government.— course would have been retained by the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some of- the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some of the - think a facsimile of some of the relevant passages has been provided to the inquiry. relevant passages has been provided to the inquiry-— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turnin: to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to — to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career and - to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career and your i turning to your career and your professional background, you served in the foreign and commonwealth office for many years from 1989 — 2013 during which time you were notably her majesty's ambassador and then nato senior civilian representative in afghanistan. correct. ., ., correct. you are then political director of — correct. you are then political director of the _ correct. you are then political director of the foreign - correct. you are then political director of the foreign and . director of the foreign and commonwealth office. but you became the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013. the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013-— the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013.- under- the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013.- under then i office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary — office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary theresa _ office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary theresa may? i office in 2013. correct. under then i home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked _ home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for— home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her— home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her and - home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her and then i correct. i worked for her and then after she became prime minister amber rudd was then home secretary for the remainder of my period. but ou then for the remainder of my period. but you then became national security adviser in 2017?— you then became national security adviser in 2017?- was i you then became national security adviser in 2017?- was that | adviser in 2017? correct. was that under theresa _ adviser in 2017? correct. was that under theresa may's _ adviser in 2017? correct. was that i under theresa may's administration? yes. ., g :: ' j~ under theresa may's administration? yes. ., , ::'j~ under theresa may's administration? yes. ., g ::'j~ yes. from june 2018, did you become actin: yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet — yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet secretary? _ yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet secretary? that's i acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when _ acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was _ acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was that - acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was that made i correct. when was that made permanent? _ correct. when was that made permanent? in _ correct. when was that made permanent? in october i correct. when was that made | permanent? in october 2018, correct. when was that made i permanent? in october 2018, my predecessor — permanent? in october 2018, my predecessor jeremy _ permanent? in october 2018, my predecessorjeremy hayward i permanent? in october 2018, my| predecessorjeremy hayward took predecessorjeremy hayward took medical leave injune, i was asked to step in. tragically, he did not recover and had to retire on medical grounds that died shortly afterwards in october and the prime minister asked me to as cabinet secretary, as you say, confirmed formally thereafter.— you say, confirmed formally thereafter. , , ., thereafter. did you become the head ofthe thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and was _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and was that i of the civil service and was that combination of roles a long—standing convention? combination of roles a long-standing convention? , combination of roles a long-standing convention?— convention? yes. there had been separate. — convention? yes. there had been separate. i— convention? yes. there had been separate, i think— convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in _ convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in the _ convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in the 1970s, i separate, i think in the 19705, really since the mid—805 they had been combined. there was a brief period after lord o'donnell stepped down as cabinet secretary, head of the civil service and indeed permanent secretary at the cabinet office when those three roles were split and lord kerslake, the late lord kerslake, took over as the head of the civil service for a couple of years. jeremy hayward, lord hayward, as cabinet secretary, and then when lord kerslake retired jeremy hayward recombined the two rolls of cabinet secretary and head of the civil service and i succeeded him in those. ., . service and i succeeded him in those. ., ,, ., �*, , those. lord siddle, that's very helful. those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could _ those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i— those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask _ those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you i those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you to i those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you to go | those. lord siddle, that's very| helpful. could i ask you to go a little bit slower, please. our stenographer who was working remotely could find it difficult to keep up with that speed. the cabinet secretary is head of the cabinet secretariat, by virtue of his or her role is right at the top, at the apex of the civil service? correct. is the apex of the civil service? correct. is the role _ apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of— apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of the _ apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of the cabinet - apex of the civil service? correct. | is the role of the cabinet secretary one that is set down in writing, is it constitutionally defined? or is the role of the cabinet secretary, whoever he or she may be, rather more an organic one, something that changes over time according to the prime minister of the day might be? it is written down in the cabinet manual which is essentially a codification of many of the procedures of government. the formal role is as secretary of the cabinet, in other words the person who is responsible for the proceedings of cabinet, that the minutes are properly recorded. but in practice, you are absolutely right, mr keith, the role is organic and the cabinet secretary balances a relationship with the prime minister, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with the permanent secretaries, and indeed a relationship with the palace, and one has to try and keep all of those relationships in balance and in good health. this relationships in balance and in good health. �* , . , , relationships in balance and in good health. . , . , , ., relationships in balance and in good health. a , ., ., health. as well as being head of the civil service — health. as well as being head of the civil service and _ health. as well as being head of the civil service and therefore _ civil service and therefore responsible for it, and as well as, is this correct, has caring response ability for ensuring the operations in a general sense of the cabinet office and its role in the centre of government and the role that it performs of liaising with other government departments, to use a word we have heard a lot, synthesising the strategy, policy and operational facets of government?— and operational facets of government? and operational facets of rovernment? . �*, . government? that's correct. the cabinet office _ government? that's correct. the cabinet office essentially, i i government? that's correct. the cabinet office essentially, i willl cabinet office essentially, i will simplify, is really into macro groupings. there are several thousand people in the cabinet office. most of that group are essentially performing the role of what one might describe as the civil service department responsible for the overall manageme