chaos by quitting over the migration plans, robertjenrick, is here first for his first interview since going. how will those in government answer that charge? michael gove, the housing secretaryjoins us too. looking on for labour, promising its ready to serve — liz kendall — who looks after the party's plans for work and pensions. and war rages, notjust on in the middle east, but on the edge of our continent — we've been back to ukraine to speak to the first lady, olena zelenska — is western backing for the country on the wane? translation: we cannot get tired of the situation. — translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because _ translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because otherwise - translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because otherwise we | the situation, because otherwise we will die. and if the world gets tired, they will simply let as die. morning, morning, to dissect and debate all of that, bill browder — one of vladimir putin's long—time critics and campaigner. scoop—getter pippa crerar, the guardian's political editor, and the former deputy prime minister, damian green. we have robertjenrick and michael govein we have robertjenrick and michael gove in the studio. have you had a chat since robert quit? michael dare i say you have some experience in surprising your colleagues. robert and i have been discussing the new national framework, robert and i have been discussing the new nationalframework, making sure we have the right homes in the right places. robert, have you had a chat with your colleagues, what has it been like since you walked out? it is a new experience for me but it was an— it is a new experience for me but it was an important point of principle, which _ was an important point of principle, which i'm _ was an important point of principle, which i'm sure we are about to discuss — which i'm sure we are about to discuss. ., ~ , ., ,., which i'm sure we are about to discuss. ., ~ , ., ., ., let's see what's making the news — the observer leads on labour's criticism of israel over their attacks on gaza. the sunday times says since covid britain's social divide's is akin to the victorian era. the sunday telegraph says a group of conservative lawyers say sunak�*s rwanda plans aren't fit for purpose. and the prime minister's told the sunday express if labour vote against the rwanda proposals, "they are not serious about stopping the boats." the sunday mirror reports on tv star's helen flanagan's love life — and they're urging rishi sunak to "tell the truth" at covid inquiry tomorrow. lots of news around and lots to talk about with our panel. pippa, you have been watching tory turmoil for years, how bad do you think things are? , , years, how bad do you think things are? ,,,,,,_ years, how bad do you think things are? , ., , are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst — are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. _ are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. he - are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. he loses i are? this is probably one of rishi| sunak's worst weeks. he loses his immigration minister, then the public is reminded of the party gate scandal and of the difficulties we went through during covid by boris johnson's appearance at the covid inquiry. rishi sunak has his own appearance there on monday as well. and finally he has on tuesday, this battle within his party to get emergency legislation through the commons. his party is split, he has the spector of theresa may failing to get her flagship legislation through, which ultimately brought about her downfall and he and the people around him will be very much hoping there is not a repeat of that. ., , ., , , ., that. one of the people they are worried about _ that. one of the people they are worried about is _ that. one of the people they are worried about is you, _ that. one of the people they are worried about is you, damian i that. one of the people they are - worried about is you, damian green. you see yourself as one of the moderates in the party. why are you not sure rishi sunak is doing the right thing on migration? irate not sure rishi sunak is doing the right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic _ right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic tenets _ right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic tenets of - one of the basic tenets of conservative governments should stick to _ conservative governments should stick to it — conservative governments should stick to it is the rule of law and meeting — stick to it is the rule of law and meeting our international obligations. what we are spending this weekend reassuring ourselves, if we can, _ this weekend reassuring ourselves, if we can, but the legislation proposed actually stays within the law. he _ proposed actually stays within the law. �* , , , ., proposed actually stays within the law. ~ , , , ., , ., proposed actually stays within the law. ., ., law. as things stand, you are not convinced — law. as things stand, you are not convinced the _ law. as things stand, you are not convinced the prime _ law. as things stand, you are not convinced the prime minister's i law. as things stand, you are not i convinced the prime minister's plan follows the rule of law? irate convinced the prime minister's plan follows the rule of law?— follows the rule of law? we are auoin to follows the rule of law? we are going to meet _ follows the rule of law? we are going to meet tomorrow, - follows the rule of law? we are going to meet tomorrow, so i follows the rule of law? we are| going to meet tomorrow, so we follows the rule of law? we are - going to meet tomorrow, so we will take the _ going to meet tomorrow, so we will take the decision then. he has said, he has _ take the decision then. he has said, he has been — take the decision then. he has said, he has been quite candid about this in public, _ he has been quite candid about this in public, it— he has been quite candid about this in public, it gets within an inch of things— in public, it gets within an inch of things we — in public, it gets within an inch of things we might find acceptable and we want _ things we might find acceptable and we want that to be true. we things we might find acceptable and we want that to be true.— we want that to be true. we are checkin: we want that to be true. we are checking it- _ we want that to be true. we are checking it. the _ we want that to be true. we are checking it. the stakes - we want that to be true. we are checking it. the stakes are very | checking it. the stakes are very high and the stakes are high in ukraine. we have been back to kyiv, but briefly, how serious do you think things are in kyiv at the moment?— think things are in kyiv at the moment? , , , ., moment? basically they are within weeks of running _ moment? basically they are within weeks of running out _ moment? basically they are within weeks of running out of _ moment? basically they are within i weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, — weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as _ weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you _ weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you saw— weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you saw and - the russians, as you saw and president _ the russians, as you saw and president putin— the russians, as you saw and president putin and _ the russians, as you saw and president putin and kim - the russians, as you saw and i president putin and kim jong—un getting _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a — president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch of- president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch of korean| president putin and kim jong—un . getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate _ getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. _ getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. all- getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. all this - partygate ammunition. all this progress — partygate ammunition. all this progress we _ partygate ammunition. all this progress we have _ partygate ammunition. all this progress we have seen - partygate ammunition. all this progress we have seen of- partygate ammunition. all this i progress we have seen of ukraine pushing _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing hack— progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will— progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be for _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be for nothing i pushing back will be for nothing if we do _ pushing back will be for nothing if we do not — pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh— pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our— pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our military- pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our military aid| we do not refresh our military aid and that— we do not refresh our military aid and that looks _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it is— we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it is running. and that looks like it is running out _ and that looks like it is running out. �* . , and that looks like it is running out. ., , ., , and that looks like it is running out. ~ ., , ., out. and that is tangled up on caitol out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill — out. and that is tangled up on capitol mu in _ out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill in washington - out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill in washington at l out. and that is tangled up on i capitol hill in washington at the moment. we will talk about that later in the programme. let's hear then from the man at the centre of this tangle — robertjenrick, friend and ally of rishi sunak, was in charge of the government's immigration plans, but he suddenly quit on the day the prime minister's plans came out — judging the plans simply not up to snuff. in his "dear rishi" letter, he said the proposal was "a triumph of hope over experience". he said "stronger protections" were "required to end the merry—go—round of legal challenges" which could paralyse the scheme. he's with us this morning for his first interview since he resigned. thank you for coming to speak to us this morning. thank you for coming to speak to us this morning-— this morning. good morning, laura. wh did this morning. good morning, laura. why did you — this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? — this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in _ this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in government i this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in government if| why did you quit? in government if ou have why did you quit? in government if you have problems _ why did you quit? in government if you have problems with _ why did you quit? in government if you have problems with proposalsl why did you quit? in government if i you have problems with proposals you are leading, it is right you step away. on legal and illegal migration i felt we were not heading in the right direction. i couldn't be the minister who was guarding this critical bill to parliament, recommending it to parliamentarians and the public if i felt, as i do, it is a weak bill that will not work. ~ , ,., i. work. the prime minister said your resignation — work. the prime minister said your resignation was _ work. the prime minister said your resignation was based _ work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on - work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on what - work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on what he l resignation was based on what he described as a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. do you not understand the plans for a wonder, or does the prime minister not understand the plans for a wonder? i not understand the plans for a wonder? ., , , , wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more _ wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than _ wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone - wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone else i wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone else in | this issue more than anyone else in government. the prime minister said the other day i was probably the minister who knows more about this topic than any he has met in europe. i think i do understand this issue. he is wrong to say? i i think i do understand this issue. he is wrong to say?— he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, _ he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, but _ he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, but our - he is wrong to say? i respect the i prime minister, but our disagreement is on this issue and it is a totemic one to the future of the conservative party and the public. i don't believe this bill will work. i think it will lead to a range of legal claims which will bog down the scheme and will not create the deterrent that he and i set out to achieve. and the test for this is not, can you get one or two symbolic flights off before the next election with a handful of illegal migrants on them. it is can you create a strong deterrent that is sustainable and stops the boats and protects the borders of this country for years to come? that is what i want to achieve and i'm afraid this bill is not it. and you will not vote for it on tuesday?— tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting _ tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this _ tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this bill. i tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this bill. but i l tuesday? no, i will not be i supporting this bill. but i do tuesday? no, i will not be - supporting this bill. but i do think we can fix this. that is what i want to do now, i care about this policy and i care about border security. i am determined we can persuade the government and colleagues in parliament that there is a better way. parliament that there is a better wa . ~ . , parliament that there is a better wa , ~ ., , ., parliament that there is a better wa . ~ ., , ., . ., parliament that there is a better wa. ., ., parliament that there is a better way. what is at the core of this is what ou way. what is at the core of this is what you have — way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted _ way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted there, i way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted there, and | what you have hinted there, and without getting into a legal tangle, but explain to viewers at the heart of this, whether or not migrants would have the right to challenge being sent to rwanda in the courts? it is your belief, which you have made clear that there could be lots of appeals which could gum up the system, what chance does the government's legal advice give the system a chance of working? it is system a chance of working? it is not riaht system a chance of working? it is not right for _ system a chance of working? it is not right for me _ system a chance of working? it is not right for me to _ system a chance of working? it 3 not right for me to speak about private and legal advice. we have seen a report in the press which suggests the government's own view is it has a relatively low likelihood of success. ~ , , , likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying _ likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it — likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? - likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? is - likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? is he i sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleading people?— sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleading people? sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleadin: --eole? ~ . . , misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and i _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and i said - is a bill that works. and i said very directly to the prime minister that if he and i are going to persuade colleagues in parliament and above all, the public, because this is about the public, that the scheme actually works we have to be absolutely certain it is going to succeed. remember, laura, we have already done two bills. this is the third bill, it is three strikes and you're out. i want this bill to work and create that powerful deterrent. i am afraid it is very clear to all those people who really understand how this system operates, that this bill will not succeed, as you just alluded to, what will happen is that absolutely everyone who comes across on a small boat will put in the claim that rwanda might be generally safe, but for individual reasons, it is not safe for them and that will have a number of practical implications.— have a number of practical implications. have a number of practical imlications. ~ ., ., implications. we have said anyone who understands _ implications. we have said anyone who understands this _ implications. we have said anyone who understands this knows i implications. we have said anyone who understands this knows that l implications. we have said anyone| who understands this knows that it will not really work. yet the prime minister, yourfriend and ally, stood at select urn in downing street this week, quite angrily saying it will work, there is only a vanishingly narrow chance of there being a small number of appeals. so the implication of what you have said is either rishi sunak doesn't understand these proposals or he is somehow massaging his message of the public to pretend this bill will do more than you believe it can? irate more than you believe it can? - respectfully disagree on this one issue. i think a political choice has been made to bring forward a bill which doesn't do the job. and i think that at this moment, when you have got small boats prices where 114,000 have got small boats prices where iilr,000 people have crossed the channel on dangerous, unnecessary, illegal small boats, that we cannot take that risk. the stakes, as you said in your introduction, or simply too high. d0 said in your introduction, or simply too hiuh. ,, , said in your introduction, or simply toohiuh. , too high. do you believe the uk has too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the — too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the european _ too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the european convention i too high. do you believe the uk has| to leave the european convention on human rights to make this work? ida. human rights to make this work? no, i don't. i human rights to make this work? no, i don't- i do — human rights to make this work? i457, i don't. i do think there is a very strong argument for leaving the european convention on human rights, but that is a debate for another day. there are respectable legal arguments for doing all the things i am proposing whilst remaining consistent with international law obligations. irate consistent with international law obligations-— obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened _ obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? - obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? i- obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? iwill- obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? i will say| obligations. we do think the bill i can be toughened up? i will say that even if that — can be toughened up? i will say that even if t