hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle according to secretary of state blamed and china is the only country with the economic military and technological power to seriously challenge the stable and open international system all of the rules values and relationships that make the world work the way we want it to is china really a threat to washington's global system. discuss these issues and more i'm joined by my guest says coarsely in washington he's a senior fellow and director of the center of american sea power at hudson institute also in washington we have sort of ghouta he is asia pacific international relations specialist at the institute for china american studies and in london we crossed when he came she is a policy analyst and senior lecturer in chinese international political economy are across up and also the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it when it's going to set in washington i found lincoln's statements about china quite remarkable because basically what he said is that he didn't say and complete words but basically the international system that the united states has built since the 2nd world war designed by the united states directly by the united states everyone must conform to it and china must too and if it doesn't conform to it that's how they define the threat is that a fair thing to say said no that's not we're sort of like well out of order jim in the beginning my introduction. lincoln said was not international or exists right now. and which he has faith has been. a party to along with other democratic countries is under threat by china and weapon chinese call everything with chinese characteristics so that means that free trade freedom of navigation. certainly free enterprise and non mercantilist system. one where there is something right multiple radical cooperation on trade and with there is not an acceptance of our intellectual property stuffed full stereo that that's the kind of world tonight instead seeks to preserve an increase not to enforce wrong others which had been barely barely getting it if they'd been really good again but and lincoln is saying is that china is challenging it well i mean it is a multi-ethnic polar world right now one party doesn't make the rules or should make the rules because then it will cause conflict when he let me go to you mean it seems to me number one the world that the u.s. is the architecture that the u.s. has been in at the at the meeting since the 2nd world wars hugely benefited china china likes a lot of those rules ok so you know i i think also during that after the 2nd world war all the way up to now the united states has never really had a peer so it has to start thinking about how the internet with international order is going to exist with the peer power go ahead wendy i'll only be with you china has vanished from the currents there with her or her fame will not be not was that faith it's not eternal issues to change it or to challenge will think it's own statement in his speech because i have read the speech it's very interesting to see it really flight is that he suggests a america he is alone. saying that it's a power in the nation basically trying to. fight against. you that you knew how could this obviously isn't true china is not able to challenge america we're here we know how to do we not only in this region not home we think that the fact that america has allies and it has nato from when it comes to economics china has roots cordoning to the rules and we gain that has been sent out here and it is still considered an evil phone and there were a lot of demands in america for the rancher in your frankenstein part demands that we were part of a developed upon the american really should be doing the assessing that step it's found that's a place to be again i think it's also important really to highlight that. while the speech really really emphasizes the fact that the end society of prioritizing american values interests the american people is that you are no no longer who we are not this is 3rd an international system that's not film for movie after movie or 2 this is no system that actually is very true at the phone. and so the game is very much tina. you know blink and you know also you know he talked about it and i'm glad when he brought it up because i stopped in my introduction how it benefited the american people absolutely right i was a continuation of it when said china also has its national interests it has to look after its own people i mean why can't the chinese jhoom what went down in the washington must do tyrants on people china do for example i mean it seems to me it's like our party and if you want to cook if you want to participate you have to do exactly what we say but the united states doesn't own the international or it's a member of the international red sox you know there are no diagram often show if a united stance is that china is a moral. yes playing by the rules of the game that the united states to lay down and china playing by those same rules is going to go boss ahead of the united states in terms of material capabilities particularly economics so just think about it this is a you know talking of decades hence if china gets to the level of productivity that south korea is the act to date china with china's economy will be 2 and a half times the size of the united states playing by the rules of the game that the united states laid out china out of the way to head off the united states and this creates a fundamental die lemme know how to manage china and the problem has been that china does not want to change the setup because it works more or less pretty well for china but for the united states something needs to change in strategy and that's not yet figured out how to change that in strategy and so instead we have this doubling down in rhetoric that china's cheating china's doing this love love love love love trying to create a coalition against china but the fact of the matter is one needs to have a better criteria one needs to have better accusations against china to be able to create that coalition against china and that's not looking at i think this is to some extent trust tradition and ceo at the u.s. and and that should not be the case because china as as we just said is just still end up home including income economy and it is not a given that the chinese communist party will be there for her that's not been the case in taiwan that we have hardware in systems have come down it could could have been in china and we could have a much more tourists set up at some point of time in the next couple of decades in a decade or 2 and that could completely change the conversation so the u.s. needs to stay true to its values and hopes of the rules of the system that it itself laid down and of course court others who. well the seat to the fire to sunday to do some of the same sets you want to reply to that go ahead well you are . wondering whether there are clashes on the border between china and india constitute or are you here in studio international order but the other guests are saying the united states and. it doesn't strike me as the. to conquer border of that you know the united states or any other democratic country or non-democratic want you know what should the united states do if there was a conflict between india and china what should the united states didn't i don't think. that statesmen have the luxury of making plans based on what could or what might happen i think one has to look at what is actually happening and judged by that. china represents a threat to national the international order liberal and national order and what did i did to set what one should try to do me and he would mr plank and what should china do if just. agree to any kind of demands from washington i don't think that agreeing to demands from washington is anything to do with how the chinese treat the readers in their own country were threatened with forced flashes with very with the indians are near or are on their own a lesson from that if it's go to war with china no of course not ok winnie go ahead jump in i see what it says what you're suggesting is number line that you that america wants trying to achieve just saying here what your right is for i i receive the team who are who are justices there are fans we will keep you on board with us that he was out for i think that is it bill. this is the posse that we were talking about the fact that you're aligned with the current situation in india the border fashions the how. even having territories he's protected it's funny i had clashes on and off for decades and they have his oh and now he's free now who are the people you know how they want to do it since we were his cock out. there in the passions out or potentially current 53 who would have been sure sure to call out what america is doing you know to control the hurleys and that i'm not saying i want to take it there but if you are going to for china or america once the whole time it's a rule that ensures it then it's necessary for america to hold ringback itself to who is of international think we're safe as you say america is not a leader america is not trying to control everything that is just part of will jump of this now it's not a question of holding trying to end the rules of the american order. it's a question now what sort of a warder exists in the world the united states has not even this part shall now the fact that the threat to the international order is recognised not simply by the united states but by europe well is demonstrated by the fact that the british are sending a carrier strike south china sea the french are sending a submarine the german hearst the germans you sending a surface ship and so there's a growing awareness of what china's aggressiveness and you envision well who ambitions be not just united states for europe as well and i expect that will continue sort of to the end washington sort of that it is china a military threat and became a miner the british going all the way around the world to to the south china sea which from the stars i know has that be it where china is the south china sea is called that for a reason here i mean if. it seems to me that we're seeing so much of a military response i mean is i would think that's a kind of the last thing you would want to be presenting well there's so many things you can diplomacy the can happen for that mean you know when this is all but all that doesn't know how to react military let's go to our other guest in washington mr cooper go here you know that it's one of. the perfect find out if one talks about globally expansionists in terms of china being doing this this globally and then all the issues that we talk about a frankly right acted stirfry in which some 18 many of which are tests already pretty legitimate claims i mean if i come to the south china sea you think about they didn't get china india border dispute actually china prior to what happened on the volga at what sort of boundary resolution proposal with regard to a certain segment off the bottom 3 what do they need to do they need is instead went and declared that kashmir was a union territory not we don't question it as a certain area which is also disputed by china but china does these things i'm pretty jealous of the site when it went in when the other countries do it sorry if you have to jump in here we have to go to a heartbreaking f. about heartbreak where discussion around us china relations stay with our troops. welcome back to cross top where all things are considered about to remind you we're talking about the u.s. china relationship. oh yes go back to mr google in washington d.c. we're talking about perceptions of chinese aggression go right ahead yeah exactly perceptions of chinese aggression you know let's let's be clear about it you know the chinese are plushy bit syria in terms of the way they handle many of these territorial aspects sources is an extension off diplomacy and politics but force within certain limits this is not force which is going to be used on the other side of the world and phobias so that cetera et cetera it's a very limited use of force and those that don't use of force has done more for political reasons think about it in time from 979 to 2021 china has had little bit of all that's should we see any movements on its territorial fronts we've had less than 150 casualties those last 40 years now think about it with regard to the eagle wars if you go home any zeroes we have to add to that in terms of casualties but let me get to a larger point out you let's regard to china again china is very territoriality oriented and their fault china is not a military threat to the wooden floor seats but in terms within those sorts i mentioned and the 2nd island chain in the western pacific china has very serious territorial claims and and strategic interests and in regard to those interests include ensure that there is an anti access anti denial strategy. to prosecuting a conflict of contingency which might arise with an in these or. artist but that also means that de dion these geographies there's actually no basis whatsoever for china to be involved in a hot conflict and that includes places like the south pacific all the string off corals in the e.u. notion there is no question of conflict military conflict happening out there but a bet is obviously with taiwan it is especially and you can see that that conflict is potentially possible there so again it's a it's a qualified out saying to himself military it's not in the streets fact of the earth but it has an election interest and there is a potential for a very serious sessions in that you have the odd man out so i'd like you to reply to what we just heard go ahead well but. you know this is. there's a certain amount of speculation here which is understandable. but when the question is asked or when it's asserted that china is not a threat well that may or may not be true but i think that it's important to look at what kind of ships. chinese are building because ships are the way that the principle way for a country to project power china is working on is working on laying the keel for its 4th. aircraft carrier which will be a very large aircraft carrier and very modern one with the electromagnetic catapults and all the attributes of her modern ship. you don't need 4 aircraft carriers for the south china sea you need aircraft carriers for one reason alone and that's to project power how used well that's a question for speculation resisting people turning the pacific is a pretty big place. but to say that china is not a threat or who are merely concerned with regional issue is the ride by the fact of building amphibious ships which are meant to project power and building aircraft carriers need creasing numbers which are meant to be the same ok india sending 3 aircraft carriers already has and will have 3 aircraft carriers by 2030 i don't know anybody saying india is being expansionist and going to south america going to somebody so i mean we need to have a little bit of shared interests in this in the context of this to. mean that we got any air limits but when and if you know we just have we have the quad you know we have in the events being. it's being designed at least by some people in washington to be kind of in asia nato obviously to contain china and so i mean when you see this containment policy being encircled encouraging the quad to even to to militarily cooperate which i i find really problematic i i don't i just can't see how the australians are going to get involved with a i just beat this out koreans out with the we've with china and you think you know south korea is going to really come to the aid of japan and i doubt that too ok but i mean if. this containment is real ok we have ships you know going into the region here ok and obviously making it clear they see this is all a projecting power against china not for freedom of the seas but you know they're keeping their eye on one target and one target only go ahead when so the idea of chinese containment is the jennet in $89.00 bills after. we still have the major come this hour with for her thank the rise of the chinese economy naturally things is more concerned with the americans as to what you might mean for a region where you have. which is a major ally who are americans foreign as well as now reality are concerned about whether my poor creative in consumer stevie need to think about where it comes to have idea how china has a military brain in this they ask it's easy for them so our events are how an idea china and the major military power engine the onset for ups plane. from we're talking about with south reeves with the fact that china's trying to develop it for a fresh carrier america has to be 3 so sense that we yes china and i.e. are trying to be a major military power and growing but it's the germans are challenging america that is exactly the center of our this is not exaggerated in terms that i think you can see there says how china is prioritizing its concerns and its its south as it's in the region it is fundamentally focusing on defense of power trying to ensure that nothing happens of course the markets for one it's hearing within this issue because there's so and it's easy to see these he. that you have been trading routes in the malacca straits is one of the reasons why we have to go through initiative because china recognizes that night you chinese the team in is one team prioritize potential with one of the treatments and therefore you need the hostler and there's a growing discussion of how the airwaves right for construct arms exports america and nationally at least that is the world's leading edge for orange 175000000000 for 20 for china exports $9000000000.00 per year over the last decade if not a challenge in that in that sense there in the big picture yes china i can see why there are concerns but it's regional for the mentally regional interims are where china is trying to protect its interests whose didn't disappoint about territoriality absolutely china has never wavered from day one about what its own heart. mr go go go go go back to i mean it seems to me you know what linkage between the rise of china the international scene has been actually spain calculator if you look at the course of history i mean unbelievable and if i can just really give a really broad picture here i mean this is the 1st time in 500 years that a non european power is becoming a peer when the only single superpower in the world this is what blinken is talking about i find it really insulting it's all couched in values and democracy considering all of the illegal wars that the united states participated in in this century alone ok and it's just because china is becoming a peer and nobody in washington understands how to deal with that and because it's this whole exceptionalism nonsense starts short circuiting because there's someone else out there that is growing in power and there's really nothing they can do about it and that's why they do fall back on these barrel things that i you know i think are hypocritical if you look at american foreign policy and nato also go ahead mr. perfectly correct on that on that trying to you know the fact that we are going to have a non west our which is going to be sitting atop the mountain all summer thereabouts is of sacked that is very hard to digest because the one that we live in is written has been written by the judeo christian west frankly and it's not it's absolutely not easy to accept the fact that chinese have been immense part of the cost they're coming back to that's. due to being that that sort of talk and they're doing it at a time when the rest of the water actually says 70 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