what faa is capable or willing at this point to produce and that the most advanced segment of the airline carrier industry were to like to see happening. so there is the difference between what is expected are requested and what can be delivered. >> to think this is a good return on our investment? >> absolutely. come the promised land. when we all get to jerusalem and nextgen is in place will be an excellent return on investment. >> amen. sounds good. i'm a little bit more of a touchy subject, recently on may 23rd, 2012 that a staff meeting, a gentleman by the name of mr. hinckley, the administrator for aviation safety made what i thought were some inappropriate comments. if republicans win office, jobs may be affected. if democrats win office, their jobs would not be affected. i think these comments are extremely inappropriate and i would like to know where these comments are coming from if this is an independent speaking. is it coming from the administration or from the white house? where is this man speaking from? >> is certainly not coming from the administration or white house. i take any potential violation extremely seriously. we do understand the office of special counsel has opened up investigations into this particular instance that we are cooperating fully and not. >> good enough for me. i yield back. >> thank you. mr. duncan. >> well, thank you, mr. chaiman. this will be some of the same frustration that chairman mica and mr. defazio expressed, but i read in the report the headlines, unresolved problems continue to impact the cost and pays and then it's below that, software related problems have cost overruns and schedule delays and in the staff memo, they have $640 million that was meant for other programs. i suppose i've been to every hearing but never had from the very start and i've been to a couple of facilities to learn what this is all about and how it operates and i don't understand all of this, but i said maybe the first or early hearings on this that i guess i either native state interest a question for some future aviation subcommittee who commented here about delays and cost overruns because that is that everybody sort of expected would happen. sure enough it is happening. not just on eram, but other things as well. what i am wondering about, since it is similar to a question i asked her statement he made years ago, are we going to have a meeting of the aviation said committee six or eight years from now and here about additional delays and cost overruns and i understand i have been told over the years that when it comes to august technology, that everything is obsolete the day they take it out of the box and i know there's always additional bells and whistles that people want. but i will ask all of you, do you feel that we are doing everything that could eat on? are there any additional things that could be done to see that we don't have additional cost overruns before this is fully implemented in 2028 or whenever. >> mr. porcari. >> thank you, mr. duncan. it is a fair question we take very seriously in the sense that we have looked at the lessons learned and if you take eram is one example of would've been structured differently. in hindsight we would've brought in our workforce to help us develop it and that was, in my opinion, a large part of the problem. we if anything would have greater interactions from the beginning with industry and users and we have a very collaborative effort that mr. huerta has described to you. it is picked some of the early procedural implementation parts of it, where we determine what and where is operationally implemented for benefit. it is i think not possible to say they will never be any problems going forward with this, but i will tell you it's a much greater level of confidence as the department's largest infrastructure program to send and i have been very personally involved and. i've a much greater level of confidence and where we're headed in the trajectory we are on now in a couple of years ago and in part i would credit acting administrator huerta's personal involvement and continuing effective administrator. >> anybody else? >> when i joined the agency a little over two years ago, my background was program management, large complex technology deployment and one of the things i wanted to focus on coming u.s. about eram. what i saw was a deployment that us encounter problems. the problems we had were we were starting deployment in my facilities, running into operational difficulties, things that are significant challenges that we needed to work through. but we did at that time is but a couple of things in place. one was a diagnosis of always the problem. we broadened the parties to look at it and we determined that what we widen hot early enough in the program was the human interaction that people will have to operate this program involved in its development and to really understand how this is going to work in a real-world environment. as a result of evaluating this program and everything of that with a comet that was what was behind putting the management changes be put in place, establishing a centralized program management organization that will bring best practices and program management to ensure we can hit deadlines, milestones and budgets. that is why we elevated and expanded responsibilities of other nextgen organization to ensure we have appropriate system integration, that we take account how one project affects other projects in so forth. what we wanted to do was make sure we were using us back to says that are used in any business for managing a large complex undertaking of this sort. it was in june of 2011 we read based the program. at that time we said that project was going to be three years in eight months behind schedule because of problems i told you about and that is going to cost $330 million more. today it is still exactly where we are. we have hit the milestones that we put in place at that point and i think that we have turned the corner on that program. i certainly wish we had never gotten ourselves into this situation, but i think we are well on our way. >> let me just say this, but it's frustrating is years ago when all this was started, i think if when it was brought up, i think everybody probably expected there'd be cost overruns and delays. i doubt there's anybody in the string that is shocked or surprised there have been over and send ablaze. or that there will be in the future. let me ask you this, how much have we spent? eram is not the whole program. how much has been spent on the whole program so far and how much is going to be spent before it's fully implemented quite i am wondering if anyone can answer that question. i guess it is almost an impossible question. i know this is a difficult thing and everything looks easy from a distance, but i also know we have an obligation to try and stay on top of it. >> we have been spending at a rate of a billion dollars per year. >> i'm sorry, i didn't hear what she said. >> we've spent investment with the support of this congress and eram and wheat and the federal investment over his program was planned at 822 mike $27 billion expenditure. now that does not include >> 27 billion >> that does not include what in nature invests in equipping aircraft and everything associated with that. from my standpoint, we are managing this program is a series of building blocks. basic foundational type elegies that we have faced in our operating within their baseline. but we do is we have adopted an approach premised upon this program perches that is a risk mitigation strategy where we make incremental investments come and match up with an essay so we can ensure that it makes sense to continue making those investment. in a program of this nature, where investments are being made over an extended period of time in a very dynamic industry that is going through some changes, details of the uncertainties such cost of fuel and where is the market going in everything that affects that. we believe that is the most prudent approach to ensure the best stewardship of the federal taxpayer investment. >> i apologize i ran over my time, but this is all very, very interesting to me. i remember many years ago they had via graphical sketches evolved members of congress at the department of transportation and at the bottom under each day had question specifically asked another most they didn't have questions, but underminded said, how much will it cost? i didn't realize i was so transparent i guess, but i have been concerned about that on this program and i still have those concerned. it's a fascinating thing, but also a lot of concern, too. thank you. >> next day probably have you taken a sharp pencil through the store? harry coppola. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i've been involved the simultaneous hearing between hearing judiciary, so i've had to play catch up. i apologize for my delayed arrival. good to have you all with us. mr. scovel, the proposed trip to jerusalem will not depart today? >> is certainly won't i regret to say. >> i wanted to go, but not today. mr. porcari, do you believe there are any stakeholders not fully committed to the proper implementation of nextgen? >> all stakeholders are committed and we have worked hard on stakeholder interaction and understanding their needs to make sure. so i blew stakeholders are implemented. >> so no naysayers. >> i do think there's appropriate skepticism from everyone involved that we get the proper benefits for the investment. >> supported. >> how well set three improve the product to video bear controllers and do you believe that nextgen has delivered and increase productivity? >> to answer the second question first, i do. >> can you pull that make a little closer to you? >> how is this? >> better. >> it has increase productivity, but more needs to be done and we will deliver more productivity benefits. the major benefits receipt, which we are really focused on this improved air traffic control procedures and you get the maximum productivity by focusing what you can do around airports. two dimensions to that. can you reduce track is flawed on arrival and departure? what d'agostino is reduced fuel burned, reduced emissions and costs. second aspect is something called dissent, which we are focused on pure traditional sense of airports are a lot like walking down the stairs. that is the aviation equivalent to stop and go driving in traffic, very field and efficient. but do not timaeus profile, reducing your fuel burned. all of that represents huge enhancements and productivity. so improving the way aircraft approach and a part gives you a lot more efficiency and a lot more ability to manage more aircraft in yesterday's base. the second benefit that gives you is the ability to what we call d. conflict airports. in large metropolitan areas, say dallas, fort worth, because of the nature of older type knowledge he and just the geography of where airports are located, we need to manage airports and construction with one another. controllers need to manage both in tandem. with advanced navigation procedures, we can separate airports because of current approaches that mr. scovel talked about. it has attracted a conflict, that greatly increases capacity of both airports. that is what we're trying to get out through the deployment of advanced navigation procedures and the benefits are quite real. >> good to have you with us. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> thank you. as long as you are here, mr. porcari, i wonder if he occurred comment on the status of sort of the international negotiations if that's the correct way of framing it in dealing with the european, and congress has been on record as criticizing an illegal omissions trading scheme and that they are trying to impose extraterritorial. can you comment on where that'll issue stance? >> i be happy to comment on it. first, we have serious legal and policy concerns with the proposed emissions trading game. it is extraterritorial. it is fundamentally unfair in its approach and we believe it is not the right way to do it. if you look at press events, using the international association organization for consensus building on international aviation issues is a much more effective way to do this. we have been clearer both on the record, author record and at every level with her e.u. counterparts, that this is unacceptable, that we do not support it. and i think if you are looking closely at the reaction around the world, you will see that we have a lot of other nations that in concert with the united states also believes that the unilateral imposition of the trading scheme is inappropriate. finally, there appears to be some recognition on the europeans died of late but there's a real consequence for doing this. so we will continue to press for the appropriate avenues for the resolution of an issue like this. we are continuing to make it clear that we have serious concerns and do not believe it should be implemented and i think the consequences of the european union moving ahead are much better understood ide these days. >> mr. chairman, thank you are just a few comments and i think it is worth noting. oftentimes we point out when there are mistakes made or cost overruns, but i just have to say that since i've been involved, i open in my remarks there was a time when the faa couldn't tell us what it was. it was not until secretary lahood was appointed secretary of transportation and randy babbitt, the former administrator came into office in the 50 acting administrator on board two years ago that there was stakeholder involvement. many of you heard me say from this feed that we heard dr. billingham, general scoble agreed that we needed to get stakeholders involved, but that logjam did not free up until secretary lahood and administrator babic came into office. and then we started involving stakeholders. we started talking about near-term benefits and we actually came up with the blueprint, which chairman mica mentioned. many of the things in the bill signed into law came from secretary lahood so it is worth noting that much progress has been made since that day. i remember he came to see me and he said, what are the challenges of deviation? i said you have to do two things then you have to do them quickly. one of the things is you have to free up this mentality that we do not want stakeholders involved that we don't want to hear from them. so to his credit and the credit of the former administrator, mr. babbitt and the acting administrator here today, we have made progress. we have a long way to go, but we've come a long way from a few years ago. so with that, mr. chairman, thank you. >> i must say currently the internal management competence in this sort of process, due in part to people here are the fad of work is a couple years ago. this is a different type of process and takes a different type of experience. we thank you for your testimony and the first panel is adjourned. we will turn to the second panel and as they are coming forward, let me introduce them. it consists of mr. david herscher of jetblue airlines. we know we have a number of important commitments and hard to between them and we appreciate his attendance at that hearing today in a sense that it may be his swan song that he is finishing that they distinguish. the public service as head of the nextgen advisory board and has been a major contribution for moving dead center or even slipping back in some areas to making real progress and i think it's to his credit that usually one good measure of how someone is doing is whether they are preparing someone to take their place and someone who is strong. you have another person of competence and experience in this area. i am impressed by the fact they hear from some of his associates that he was enough extra time in his schedule so that he can engage in helping on this process and turning some of his day-to-day responsibilities over to others at the alaska airways. so does that attribute to you in part and we thank you for that. others on the panel are paul rinaldi, air traffic controllers association has been before us before. thank you for being here again. it is true also of ed ed ed. and ms. sue bael, director of aviation port authority in new york and new jersey. welcome comment thank you for being here. we look forward to summarizing your prepared statements in about five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, i appreciate the kind words as well. thank you two ranking member costello as well for his support ongoing and distinguished members of the subcommittee appeared on behalf of more than 14,000 members at jetblue, thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning to cert link discuss at this testimony. i would like to begin by thanking you for your genuine passion on this topic can educate all americans about the importance. i know is we've spent time over the years, we think about of course your home state and robust aviation community in the state of wisconsin and what happens over the course of the most spectacular week of the year at the oshkosh air show with bea. and with that said tamayo so juxtaposed my thoughts and comments regarding matches the home base of operation that i come from at new york's john f. kennedy airport, the congestion in the air space challenges have across places like the metropolitan area and here i am the metropolitan area. all of this site, mr. chairman and certainly two ranking member costello as well, and over the years, you have certainly been passionate about pursuing just real meaningful solutions to these problems as if they had been in your congressional districts across the country and we certainly appreciate that as an industry. your palate hearings, conduct of information on sessions and have an open door as he sought not to assign blame, but in terms of driving a shorter path to progress in the future. for the past years as chairman of the faa's nexgen advisory committee. i thank you and i'm wearing two hats today. that is in the rover chairman as well as ceo at jet airways. on the sub three advisory committee come all soon conclude my 2-year-old weary bruce group of leaders from across the world does both volunteered that. we provide consensus-based recommendations on complex policy issues and response to specific questions they present to us. now through the rtca has reported back to the task with recommendations for initial reports. on 17 items critical to implementation, ranging from select team and prioritizing metro plex plates, rollout within the sites to performance manager, incentives to the issue and the 17 items have been submitted in my written testimony. and now come as i have undertaken a graduate-level study course in all things nextgen over the past two years in my time i am excited to report it could not be more pleased with the progress of this group i chaired, including those in the support of my fellow panelists this morning and also with partners of the fas dimensioin your closing comment where work was so closely over the past two years of my chairmanship. my members are voting each and every meeting. we have held every aeronautical university in daytona beach. we been up in new york at kennedy airport and with mayor bloomberg at gracie mansion and even at the complex in seattle recently. and it just a couple of weeks, we will be hosted by department of defense at air force base. the thought here as to get out and see what is happening across aerospace, whether it's education or whether it's a different facets of aviation as we talk about these issues. it is engaged and committed and would certainly remiss if i didn't bank our set chair over the course of the past two years, tom hendrix who has since moved on and also steve brown for their tremendous work and literally hundreds of volunteers working on wor