what in the world has happened to johnny depp? i don't know alcohol probably drugs bad divorce case, you know, it's a i worry about him ben. you know that his he's hit a hit apart, but he keeps acting and keeps going but i'm not in regular touch with him anymore, but he's how well i know him very well. you write a book with him. no, are we edited a book on witty guthrie together? we found a long lost manuscript of woody guthrie. and we called the house of earth. and it was a bit of a literary find and actually i found it, but we were trying to get money for the guthrie's music for kids for after school music programs. so johnny's involvement with it allowed my publisher harper collins to put some money into it and went to this school fund and the bookcare number 10 on the best seller list of for fiction in the new york times when he got through he's been dead forever. so it had a little bit of a nice run. i wrote a cover story of depth for vanity fair where i'm attributing editor. we went on a boat from porter now we went from what we went to puerto rico, but we left the bahamas to puerto rico and i rode along. along essay about them i once did a story a cover story on them for george magazine if you remember that so i've known him over a period of time but his mother died in this divorce that he got in with the amber heard. it's just gone. he's you know swimming her ex-wife and it's just spiraled to the point of tabloid beyond tabloid speculation. i had somebody call me maybe a week ago. and it was a look like a normal number for some reason a blind call. i took it in with somebody trying to do a documentary on their thing. i just kind of sorry. bye, you know, but you know, here's a quote from johnny depp me. i'm dishonest and you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. it's the honest ones you have to watch out for. yeah, there's a line of he there there's a line of dylan. it's that you who live outside the law must be honest. and i think on that quote it sounds like he's he's riffing on that. that was a sentiment of people like jean janae a great french writer and some of the depths very influenced by that kind of outlaw. an outlaw tradition, you know, they're all billy the kids, you know hunter used to call himself believe the kid, you know that they're they're operating out and an outlaw situation, but i think that's what he's riffing on there one other quote. we're all damaged and our own way. nobody's perfect. i think we're all somewhat screwy every single one of us johnny depp. well that may be true. you know, jeff had a a bad abusive father and he grew up in kentucky and then florida and his mother was a waitress and tried to raise them and he got into a band called the kids. and became famous and he was unbelievably handsome and became a matinee idol when they still existed and just did a series of incredible films that got people just adored i so many you can't tell i mean the pirates of caribbean with him as jack sparrow where the biggest raking money movies of all time. but you know, there's an old adage japanese adage the nail that stands the tallest gets hammered down. and he got pretty tall. in his divorce case came right when the me too world was coming up and you know and then his a partying, you know it catches up with you unless you you know life so got a long haul. and so he's in transition right now and i have to see how he how he deals with the but he made some of the most memorable movies of our time. i mean edward scissorhands or you know, willy wonka. yeah. okay caribbean caribbeans. i mean, these are films that people watch and watch and watch and watching every year. he would win the people's favorite award, you know when academy awards for best actor, but the people picked his movies his number one so he is a very very large fan base, but he hit the kind of skids. the last few years is in legal entanglements, and i hope he pulls through he's his solicit. he's been doing a lot of rock and music recording with people in the rock and roll world where they have a band any place and it the hollywood vampires and it have people ranging, you know for alice cooper and steven tyler of aerosmith and people in the band and that sort of his family at this point. his kids are grown and doing well and and acting and and he's just come till you when you go through these divorce settlements at that level. you know, he's got i think another case coming in, virginia soon. why did you write a profile on evil knievel? he will knievel. i actually have to give great and carter. so great and carter the editor at vanity fair. invited me to lunch and said i want you to make a list of 10 people to profile. so anybody listening to us can make their their list? and i did. and at the number 10 was evil knievel who i saw once jump at kings canyon when i was had over at an amusement park and in near cincinnati, and he i couldn't believe that he was still alive. like i was just vaguely, you know once in a while you get somebody like wow evil knievel bob knievel was what has happened to him what has happened to daredevil and winter? and so it was on my list and that's the one grain gravitated towards i was trying to get a bigger profile with somebody, you know other people, but he thought that was a good idea. so i found myself going down to florida and saint petersburg, sarasota. he was and i went and hung out with them and spent time and wrote the profile of them. he was piece of work, you know, the only thing i'll tell you brian is that he grew up in butte, montana. and his early money. he made us a kid was they had a live cougar in? anna in a pit and they would take a bicycle and he'd ride over the cougar and kids would give him money and then he went out and started it, you know once you do a stunt like that, then people wanted more we'll do it further and and he got that started with motorcycles and became a great motorcycleist and then started making money as a daredevil. and particularly caesar's palace in las vegas had him do this extraordinary unbelievable jump over the fountains. and this was a day without protective helmets and equipment and he like broke every bone in his body. i mean he was spotting he was shattered and yet he came back and he kept doing these stunts and stunts and stunts. so at my age again when i grew up evil knievel was pretty well known sports figure he kind of created. stream sports mentioning muhammad. ali is going to be a ken burns. ken's not going to do evil knievel. but he's seen his too much of a off figure or whatever but knievel and his day was attracting massive sports audiences on abc and when i saw him he was born again christian living with his wife. it was younger than him very nice person. and you know, he was eating a lollipop like a morphine lollipop that looked like something you get as sugar candy or whatever, you know type of thing. and he broke i'm not exaggerating. he like broke every bone in his body had liver transplant. it was and yet the spirit was there and it was a very wolverine like old pioneer spirit that you don't see any more he came he was like that part of butte up there where the winters and the mining and the he was like you wanted to see what real western like gold rush in the uconn or something's like he he was a remnant. from all of that living now in florida, and i the one thing that i remember the most is at one point. he said i want to show you something. and he went over in his bedroom and he pulled open his drawer and he opened up an envelope and it was a hundred thousand dollars of travelers checks, and he said every man needs a hundred thousand dollars. you can always survive if you can leave. with a hundred thousand dollars and then his hero is harry truman. and he hated hollywood and despised actors. he was very conservative born again christian, but really because he said i liked people that do stuff and you know, but it was then the humor was evel knievel telling me these kids today. they call it jumping, you know, the my day we didn't have these kind of helmets fancy. they my elbows weren't protected like, you know, and it's just like what talking to somebody out of um, you know a distant past and any passed away not that long after 207. yeah, and i i was kind to him in my writing i didn't there are a lot of opportunities not to be but in the end, he's a guy who's regularly visiting the doctor all these broken bones pain medicine praying to god on he joined evangelical church and you know me just after all of it people have been talking the culture people. that i don't know that this means anything dylan bob from hibbing, minnesota. johnny depp from owensboro, kentucky hunter thompson from louisville, kentucky carouac from lowell, massachusetts chuck berry from st. louis and knievel from brute montana say anything any yeah. it's a it might be that i wasn't part of a new york kind of the intelligentsia. i was out there in public schools in america eating at seven elevens and you know land grant universities those all were figures that were very popular in america, but probably weren't aren't given the respect by critical community perhaps as much as as they could, but i don't know. i mean i those are just some of the cultural people i've written about, you know, there are a lot of people i like i just didn't get that opportunity either. i didn't get an assignment to write about them or you know, if i wouldn't have had the connection for bob dylan if i didn't first get to do the profile. rolling stones so as much as i'd like to do an oprah winfrey profile, i'm not being asked to do the oprah winfrey profile, so i can't, you know talk about but she is an amazing career and some days oprah winfrey's biography will be very important to mean some i i don't know what she's done, but she did a lot and in the sense of her empowerment of women and it is just been extraordinary in her career, and it's a business woman. also, i would love to go do a profile of her but you know, there are a lot of she is her own magazine. she's got a vanity fair if they did get to do her they would probably give it to somebody else besides me. so, you know, you have to take and i've written a lot of political so we're talking about those people, but i've, you know don't cover stories and joe biden in barack obama and i've done you know, the reagan diaries and nixon i did. are vanity fair story on gerald ford? what about vanity fair? let me ask you that is great and carter. how did you get the assignment of the contributing editor? yeah, they just i was writing for a lot of places. i did some pieces cover pieces for the atlantic monthly. as it was called in the atlantic of today and braden noticed that in a guy named david friend a creative editor. they wanted to bring me to vanity fair which is unique cuz i'm an academic historian. there's no other academic historian working on the vanity fairs meaning it actual professor. and they brought me in and i did. i did all sorts of pieces. i did clarence jones the martin luther king jr's lawyer. and probably my most successful story. i did a piece about rain egg in the mayor of new or for vanity fair that really led to negan going to jail in many ways. i was on the the hunt of that with them. i premiered. why wait, um his his cronyism and taking money giving government contracts to people who were his friends so he can get up pay off just old-fashioned corruption and i got put onto the feds were down there investigating him and i kept hearing the shop talk going on that he was doing this walk katrina was going on. he's still impressive he is. yeah. yeah. i'm quite proud of it's a bit of my ability to during i wrote the book the great day loose on katrina like i sort of hone in on him a little bit and but you know, so they would ask me to do different things i came and i'm sure i'm forgetting a lot of the different profiles right now, but less so now we're deca jones is the editor hitchens and great and are gone from there and you know i get along great with radika jones. i'm just not getting the biggest assignments like i used to. you go back and look at your own life. you're 60 years old. yet 35 years to go. or more what? what do you want to get done when it comes to the culture part of this? what what's on your what's on your docket? um, well i would love to write on about blues and jazz with the wynton marsalis situation. i told you about i've worked a little bit with a friend of mine doing some jazz productions this year. we worked on an album together with on dave brubeck great jazz musician who this is a hundredth birthday brubeck. i like to keep doing my music. let me jump into ask. does anybody care though? no. very high do you sell that? i mean don't dave brubeck was big in my life. yeah. i'm a historian though. i have that problem. i look back on people with the kind of fondness. i think you hit an age where you want to do. what's nonprofit and so for me it's doing love with the environment or and we'll buy that i mean, wild in scenic rivers saving special places in america. i'm really into the national park state parks outdoor recreation. the natural world because i feel like a million dollars when i get to hike. or look at the ocean or see a hummingbird and i've stayed very connected, you know throw used to henry david throw used to say you're you know, you don't to look at, you know heaven by looking up is here on earth. there's so many beautiful places and it's just kind of creating a mindfulness and awareness of what's going on. i read a lot of poets like william carlos williams. they were called symbolism. so williams from patterson, new jersey would write like so much depends upon a red wheelbarrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. now the point of that was just a photo image. so i sometimes like try to have mindfulness where i study something almost like you would be sketching it just to create a sharp memory when i see things other people will do. oh look at that and i'll take a photo of it, but i just try to etch like a great, you know moment that i i remember and that way i keep my memory fresh. i like, you know, i have three kids. so i'm excited to get my kids to college. i'm excited to go to there sporting events. i'm excited to see their lives and get lucky. maybe i'm alive for them to have grandchildren and i our kids are just everything. i mean we are we are two dogs two cats a parrot and three kids, so i got my my life, but there are books that i'm hoping to write. you know, i'm realizing as i hit 60, i am fatigued a little more. i don't have quite the energy it just left me at around 58 and i'm going to have to cope with that. i have to gather all my papers. i've saved an awful lot. so for example if i wrote rosa parks's biography i have oh, i don't know maybe 50 cassette tapes dealing with rosa parks or seminal people around her. we're gonna do with all i have two options now boston university has been for a decade now actively trying to acquire my archive. and i've hesitated because of rice university where i'm at and their special collections it hesitation as it's going to take some time for me to weed through all of these boxes that i've saved and put in store storage and i started that when covid happened a little and it i only went so far. it's sort of weird looking at your back pages. and so but i'm gonna have to confront doing that and then if i get that burn off my back there are places i want to travel i'm embarrassed. i've never been to ireland. i love irish music. i mean deeply love it, and i've never been to ireland. so i'd like to go to dublin and drive around. i've also very high miles before you leave there. let me ask you you have a favorite irish writer. oh irish writer. um, well, i mean i actually have spent. yeah, obviously, i mean james joyce for me the dubliners portrait of an artist as a young man, but also i studied finnegan's wake with the readers god. i couldn't learn it on my own and so i had one of these guys the only two writers i've ever done that with or thomas pension with gravity's rainbow and finn against wake i couldn't make heads or tails out of them. and so i got some academic did these wonderful readers guys that they can help you decipher it. there's one on kurt now too and encyclop. of kurt vonnegut, so if you read it and match it with it, then you starts going and then it really comes together, but the way joyce tried to save dialect in the language to me is very impressive i once went to his grave in which is in switzerland, and i i made a great long pilgrimage to just go sit there and eat a bologna sandwich because i was reading him. you know, i like going it, you know, so a little bit of travel i've seen almost all the united states, but i'm not been to one state. 49 and i still have never been to hawaii. and the reason is i always feel if i go there. i like to go for a month and i never have the month. so maybe down the line here, i'll go there for my month, but i desperately want to be able to say i went to all 50 states and then i i have the benefit of convincing my wife to become a die-hard detroit tiger. man because i grew up there in toledo and i was really detroit market. so we went last week. i saw the tigers play the astros with in a limited stadium it great the tigers won and we hope to go i with my kids visit all the stadiums. it's just a little like a chuck. but how many of you visit indiana about half? i'm about half. i'm really like to go see where the the brewers stadium and you know, we're talking about people of interviewing and all you know, i recently wrote for the new york times the profile of hank aaron the great baseball great who i knew as a kid and i spend election night in atlanta at the at the erin's house and he was in great shape. i mean, i taped him and was all set up through people that knew him in atlanta and i was with billy his wife and we had a great time in his home and that was november and then boom i news in january that he had passed so i wrote this piece for the new york times about it and i his story fascinates me how aaron everybody here talks about jackie robinson, but the way hank aaron was able to beat babe ruth with hate threats and the likes swirling around them. what great man. he was did by the way because he was a teacher. did you ever read frank mccourt? oh, yeah, and you used to have frank on you got to know him pretty well. i think probably right where you are. yeah. he was a just a great interview. he's great interview. he hates the storyteller part excellence. i got to know him through my good friend. very good friend william kennedy annapolis to he wrote a book many books the william j kennedy. well, it's william kennedy of albany. he writes novels about albany and more. he wrote one of the best political novels called roscoe, but he also did iron weed which meryl streep and jack nicholson starred in but kennedy runs the for years with his wife dana randall writer's school at the state university of new york. and he was very tight with frank mccourt in when we go to these writers conferences heat frank mccourt would always be there talk to anybody and tell stories and and william kennedy's that way too one of our most underappreciated. novelist of my lifetime was is william kennedy. i when i would frank mccourt just reminded me of the story, but i went up to stivensen high school where he taught new york city to take his photograph for the first book notes book we ever did. and after it was over i was so excited because he just he was electric. that wonderful irish accent and afterwards he said were you going next i said, well, i have to go back up town. i said come on. i'll write up with you. i'll i want to buy you a subway ticket. oh we got on the subway and a woman on the subway came up to him. he said are you frank mccourt? and he said yes, that's